Unholy Wishlisting – Were I Bliz

Consider this post a response to Baadshah’s comment regarding the current bloat of the Alpha trees. Although I’m not even close to vain enough to agree with him when he bets that an actual developer is likely watching this site (and, in fact, I find it rather unlikely one is even aware that this place exists), I do know that he is undoubtedly right when he says that Blizzard is quite anxious for some feedback regarding the proposed changes. They are. Blizzard really does care about its game and the happiness of its community, and although you may argue their reasons for caring simply come down to money or what have you, does that even make a difference? Think about it; it generally doesn’t.

Anyways, the below are some of my thoughts on what talents really need to be looked at (or simply deleted), and why I believe such is the case. If it gets read by someone with influence, and they find some value in it – excellent. If not, hopefully it still made for an enjoyable and thought-provoking read! Either which way, although I don’t usually like publicly “wishlisting” in such a manner, I do thoroughly enjoy doing so in my own head, so why not share on occasion?

If people like, I can always do a Frost and/or Blood version of this post as well.


The most obvious first! Desolation is a flat-out horrible talent, no matter how you look at it. Its faults are almost too long to list – it’s expensive, it’s just barely good enough to take (but not quite bad enough to ignore), its boring, it screws up our AoE rotation, it doesn’t affect our pet, and so on. If any talent was a candidate for being simply removed, Desolation would be the one. That, or it should be rolled into another “problem” talent – such as Reaping.


In PvE, Virulence is just laughably weak, and will never be taken. In PvP, Virulence is take, but only because the alternatives for moving down the tree (Anticipation on live, Epidemic on Alpha) are even worse, and because spell hit capping is relatively vital (even if Virulence is an expensive manner in which to do so). My answer? Don’t remove it; either make it grant 1% hit (melee *and* spell) per point, thus giving it some value in PvE and giving it a boost in PvP or buff it up to 3% spell hit per point, thus making it so that if you max the talent out, you’ll be spell hit capped so long as your melee hit capped. The latter might not be enough to make it taken in PvE, but that’s not a huge deal as we actually like Epidemic – it will, however, make it a huge boon for PvPers. We already have to concern ourselves with spell penetration against players, unlike a pure melee, so why not give us a break when it comes to spell hit, which only affects a couple of our spells (albeit ones which could cost you the game if resisted)?

Any which way, there’s no arguing that a talent which gives 1% spell hit/point for a class which has 80% of its abilities working off melee hit is underbudget. If you think otherwise, then Elemental Precision and Precision are both overpowered, seeing as how they affect almost all of their respective spec’s abilities… right?


My issue with Necrosis is how misleading the talent is. It doesn’t benefit from Black Ice, Ebon Plague, any of that. For all intents and purposes, it may as well read +4/8/12/16/20% auto-attack damage… except it’s not even that simple, because of partial resists!

As someone who gets numerous tells/PMs/emails a day on DK-related matters, let me tell you – Necrosis is currently the most misunderstood talent by newer Death Knights (ignoring Scourge Strike, that is).

I would either change the wording, somehow, or I would make it function how it used to (and how most people expect it to) and then simply nerf it slightly if its then too strong. Ideally the latter

Slimming down the talent wouldn’t hurt either, but that’s not a huge deal. We’re going to have 5 point talents – that’s inevitable. Necrosis being five is perfectly fine, considering it’s position in the tree and other options of its tier.


The increased damage to Death Coil is fine and all; the cooldown reduction of Death and Decay is not. DnD is an essential tanking move, and tanks being locked out of getting it is incredibly inconvenient and illogical. I would simply give DnD a 15s base cooldown, and then have Morbidity increase it’s damage by the same percent at which it increases Death Coil. The talent keeps its flavour while tanks don’t have to worry about getting it. If you have to nerf its base damage by the same amount to compensate, then no big deal – as a former tank, I know I would gladly take a weaker DnD with a shorter cooldown then a stronger one with a longer one, any day of the week.


Oh, Reaping, the problem child of Unholy. When it was young, it behaved exactly as expected, and Blizzard were quite proud parents of their little progeny. Over time, however, it grew up and became nothing but trouble!

There are two issues I have with Reaping, the first being that it’s a relatively weak talent for its cost, hence why we don’t even take it presently, and the second being that it’s all-or-nothing – 1/3 and 2/3 are useless, you either take 3/3 or you take nothing. Fixing the first can be done through a variety of means; roll Desolation into it (as previously stated, and as I’ve been pushing for since patch 3.2.0), add Icy Touch to the talent (assuming SS remains at a one rune cost, as it currently is on Alpha), cause abilities used via death runes to be slightly more potent, giving it a plain old % damage boost (a la Blood of the North), and so on. As to the second issue… it’s already fixed, if SS continues to use one rune.

Crypt Fever

Unique raid debuffs are bad. That is all. Either make Crypt Fever only affect our diseases, or give other specs/classes a means of bringing the debuff (or roll it into another debuff, like bleed damage). Aside from that, it’s a fine talent – 10% disease damage/point is incredibly potent, not to mention the value of the first point (bringing a third disease).

Ebon Plaguebringer

Unholy’s claim to fame… because it’s so overpowered. Either make it so that Pestilence doesn’t spread EP (and have it spread CF instead, so we still get three diseases on each target) or make it so Curse/Bane of Elements and Earth and Moon can be done AoE. As it is now, an Unholy DK is mandatory for any fight which requires AoE prominently (i.e, Anub heroic and Yogg + 0) or which requires the raid to dps down multiple targets quickly (Valkyrs on LK heroic. It might not require actual AoE, but having a lock/moonkin do their debuffs on each target takes so much more time).

Unholy Blight

Alright, I’ll be honest – UB is actually a perfectly fine talent. Damage wise, it’s strong (without being too strong). It’s “cheap” and easy to take. It has a lovely PvP benefit. So on. But, let’s be honest, as anyone who has been playing a DK since the beginning can tell you, one can’t help but miss the old version.

Now, obviously, that won’t be brought back for any number of reasons (not the least of which is that it was simply overpowered!). That said, they could still capture the idea of the old, and combine it with the reality of the present. Why not make Unholy Blight function like a reverse Glyph of Holy Light, where Death Coils casted on a target afflicted would reflect some of their damage to X enemies within Y yards of the target (in addition to just dotting the primary target)? Giving it a cap would keep it from being too strong. Or why not just make the dot on the target hit enemies nearby every time it ticked?  Oh, the possibilities.

As always, comments most welcome.

27 Responses to Unholy Wishlisting – Were I Bliz

  1. Baadshah of Dawnbringer says:

    The reason I’d made a claim regarding developers watching was due to have a close friend whose father actually works in WoW development.
    He visited campus last year and we all got to talking over lunch… I asked him to be honest about just how much attention Blizzard *really* paid to its consumers (this was in the 3.0.8 Naxx days when the forums were filled with livid non-DKs, quite understandably).

    His reply was what really made me raise an eyebrow- he stated that Blizzard will actually give employees lists of websites/threads to follow for days if not weeks.
    Of course, he could have been pulling my leg or just misleading me because his contract compels him to stay shut, but he didn’t want to appear rude.
    But something tells me he was quite serious.

    Were it not for the fact that you’re well known on the forums and the EJ community (and there we KNOW Blizzard watched regularly; there have been Blue posts by GC himself stating this), coupled with the fact that our class is being revamped and getting a new expansion, I may have been more skeptical.

    But I challenge readers to find a site with this level of analysis that is solely devoted to DKs, outside the forums and EJ (both of which have their respective problems).

    I’m not in the U.S. right now, since I’m an International student, but you can bet I will be sure to mention this site to my friend as an unofficial bump to Blizzard 😉

    Also, I’m interesting in hearing what you think about Improved Presences and ways to take up Runic Power Mastery in both our Frost and Unholy builds again. I don’t like the idea of leaving the latter behind in the least.

    • Roth says:

      This is such a horrible talent and quite honestly…I think it really shows the problem blizzard has with pets. Pets should gain every single buff their owner gains. This includes the the ICC zone buff (which they fixed, thankfully) as well as Blood Presence, Desolation, Blood Queen bite, etc etc. This talent wouldnt be ‘quite’ so bad if our ghoul, AotD and Gargoyle got benefit…but they dont.

      Obviously I went off a bit on a pet tangent…but a lot more could have been done with these 5 points.

      Horrible talent. Our abilities (Icy Touch and Death Coil included) should work off of melee hit and crit rates. End of story. We should not have to worry about things like spell penetration. It seems rather odd that blizzard will nerf shadowfrost specs (and rightly so) but still penalize us with ‘spell’ hit/crit rates.

      Its good, but its under-budget. It should be 5/10/15/20/25% (which would actually make it the intended 20%).

      They need to do more with Morbidity. its pretty obvious that this talent was meant to be a mainstay of Unholy builds and it flat out isnt. And DnD being 30 seconds makes no sense at all since its primarily a tanking talent. Imo, this is what they should do:

      1.) Removing Virulence entirely.
      2.) Lower DnD’s baseline cooldown to 15 seconds.
      3.) Remove the lowered DnD cooldown from Morbidity.
      4.) Move Morbidity up to tier 1 Unholy and make it the Virulence replacement.
      5.) Make Icy Touch and Death Coil work off of melee hit/crit rates.

      I agree that Reaping should be combined with Desolation. I wouldnt make it buff Icy Touch tho…that risks bringing back Shadowfrost builds. Just make it buff Blood Strike damage by 10% and maybe Unholy Blight by 100%.

      Crypt Fever
      This talent should be removed. DK diseases should simply be buffed by 30% baseline. What 25 man raid doesnt already have an Unholy DK in it? This talent, imo, falls under the “Innervate back in Vanilla WoW” category: everyone already has it or makes use of it…so just make it baseline already.

      Ebon Plaguebringer
      Its fine. Earth and Moon and Curse of Elements arent. They need a method for spreading their buff AoE.

      Unholy Blight
      Would be nice if this was the Unholy DK version of Heart Strike/Seal of Command (ie, it hit its main target and 2 others). Obviously its damage would be SIGNIFICANTLY lower than HS/SoC…but the idea would be the same. It would definitely strengthen Unholy in one of its weaker areas (notice I said ‘weaker’ and not ‘weak’ =P ): aoe on 2-3 targets.

      • Raaj says:

        “Crypt Fever
        This talent should be removed. DK diseases should simply be buffed by 30% baseline. What 25 man raid doesnt already have an Unholy DK in it? This talent, imo, falls under the “Innervate back in Vanilla WoW” category: everyone already has it or makes use of it…so just make it baseline already. ”

        The issue with this is that Death Strike would be massively nerfed. As a unholy DK, I relay on DS to keep my ass alive far too often. If there is one less disease present, the healing from DS is reduced by 33%.

        That is a huge hit.

      • Sag says:

        I PvP as unholy, and having that 3rd disease helps a lot for DS. Given that both DS and SS hit for crap on plate, at least DS gives me some life back.

        Given that diseases are kind of fire and forget for a while having that much damage tossed out at once, in a huge area would be OP. The unholy tree is set up to buff diseases and pets. Given awesome diseases to everyone would defeat half of the purpose of the tree.

        Another issue with giving every DK CF or EP is how strong OB would get for frost. Maybe I have that math wrong, but crit multipliers are put in after disease multipliers, not to mention the frost tree buffs OB’s damage at least twice. For some reason I’m not as concerned with how strong a third disease would make blood’s DS.

  2. Baadshah of Dawnbringer says:

    Incidentally, I have to wonder if Ebon Plague will be so bad in Cataclysm when you consider that rogues will also gain a similar ability (i.e. increasing Magical Damage taken by 8%). If they can spread this with FoK spamming, wouldn’t it be OK for us to be able to use Pestilence as well? There’s also the fact that (sob) our spread diseases and wandering plague will be doing significantly less AoE damage now.

    I definitely like the idea of having Unholy Blight act as an antithesis to Glyph of Holy Light.

    And before I forget, another question: Is Scourge Strike currently double dipping into the ICC buff? I’m going to guess it’s not, but I wanted to be sure.

    • Roth says:

      SS is not double dipping, no.

    • Consider says:

      If FoK can spread the Rogue version, than that’s a definite improvement, but it still leaves Warlocks and Druids in the dust. Druids are easily fixed by letting Earth and Moon proc off Hurricane/Starfall, but Locks are the tricky ones.

      Improved Presences I have no problem with, personally, so long as the base presences are equal to one another, roughly speaking. RPM is in need of a look at, but I’ll probably do a Frost version of this post tonight and go over that then.

      • Sag says:

        Since they are changing what is a curse and what is a bane for warlocks changing this could be easy. Change all curses to AoEs and have the warlock target an area. They may have to put a CD on curse of exhaustion (as spamming a 50% AoE snare may be OP to some) to put it inline with the mage and I believe moonkin abilities they have. Aside from that is curse of weakness really that great? Effectively it’s like demo shout, and probably a weaker version at that.

  3. Baphomette says:

    I’d like to see spell pen rolled into Virulence for PVP purposes – it’s bad enough that we don’t scale with ArP or other stats particularly well in PVP, but having to gem for SpP is ridiculous. Is there any news on what the ratings are like? In WotLK terms, what I’d like to see is:

    Rank 0/3
    Increases your chance to hit with spells by 3/5/7% and increases your spell penetration by 43/86/130.

    In other words, melee hit capped + virulence = spell hit capped. I don’t know how the numbers are changing, if at all, but Virulence’s numbers would be adjusted accordingly (obviously more spell pen come Cata, or it would be based on level somehow).

    I’m not sure if it’s feasible but I’d like to see Necrosis do a (smaller) percentage of our _unmitigated_ damage, perhaps 3/6/9/12/15 or even 2/4/6/8/10 if it were real Shadow damage and affected by FP/BI/EP/etc. Instead of swing for 100, armor reduced to 80, necrosis adds 16 you would have swing for 100, necrosis adds 15 regardless of target’s armor (or 10+x%+y%). A little ArP of our own, essentially.

    Merging the disease/physical debuffs is an interesting idea, although Brittle Bones no longer has any reason to exist 🙂

  4. Jonneh says:

    The base problem with Ebon Plague with regards to “other classes” is the fact that we already spread our diseases as a matter of course, to increase our DPS. We’d do it even if EP wasn’t spread to multiple targets.

    The same can’t be said for the other versions of the debuff, currently. Having said that, they have stated that CC and alike is going to be more used on trash and perhaps bosses, which means that we’d possibly be put into the position of not being able to pest during some fights.

    An easy fix is to simply make seed of corruption//rain of fire//hurricane also apply the debuff for warlocks/druids. While this may be fine in the case of druids, I’m not sure about locks because of the ‘one curse’ component.

    I suspect CoE will get changed before long. It’s a bit clunky at the moment, as it still follows an old system of sacrificing personal DPS for raid dps.

    Completely agree on all other points. I have always loved the current implementation of IUP, but I’ve found myself suffering a bit too much DPS wise lately with the scaling of other classes outstripping our hotfixed Scourge Strike. So much so that I don’t feel I can waste the points for IUP, despite the obvious advantages of the talent. Cata talent philosophy was supposed to allow all classes to still be optimal, and have a cookie cutter spec.. but allow people to pick “the last 5 points” themselves for whatever we might want to use it for. I was looking forward to taking IUP and even maybe On a Pale Horse! But there always seems to be more DPS increases which unholy can take for those extra points. Whats more, we seem to be harshly balanced around that fact at the moment, as Unholy slips further and further down the DPS rankings (for single target certainly, and requiring two specs again for optimal AoE/Single Target DPS)

    Which is another point really? I think a major goal for unholy in cata should be that we never again have to respec in order to provide our best AoE capabilities. Blizzard always said there would be no “requirement” to have dual spec, but yet we always seem to be moved that way by changes to the talent tree.

    We’re all waiting to see what might happen. I really hope blizzard do read this, and take something from it.

    • Evilgasm says:

      They already are changing how CoE works, by proxy. The damage dealing curses, Curse of Agony and Curse of Doom, are changing to “Banes” and will stack with curses but not with each other.

    • Rhaevos says:

      I was just getting ready to state that Ep is something DK’s would do with or without the extra magic damage, but ya beat me to it 🙂

      But I agree, it’s one of the reasons it’s so powerful, DK’s do not make any sacrifices to put a magic debuff on aoe targets, using pest increases our dps for both aoe and single target because wandering plague does more damage than a blood strike.

      That’s where the problem other classes come into, they would lose personal dps putting a magic debuff on multiple targets while we gain dps, even if rogues do fan of knives on aoe to put up a magic debuff, they still lose a small amount of their single target dps because they are exhanging the energy/GCD for a fan of knives over another ability.

      As for a frost wish list, I have a couple things:

      One, make chillblains and acclimation useful in pvp at least.

      Chillblains issues are that chains of ice overrides chillblains, so if you chains, chillblains is removed, they don’t stack where desecration and CoI can be used at the same time. This needs to be fixed. Also, chillblains is removed when frost fever is removed, again, this needs to be fixed. Chillblains is next to worthless in its current form.

      My suggestion? It’s a little out there, but make it like the old unholy blight, when the DK uses x ability (such as obliterate or frost strike), they put out an aura that slows down all targets by 50% within x range. Makes the talent similar to desecration in a way, but with it’s own unique property so that it’s not a copy/paste of the unholy talent.

      In it’s current form, acclimation is next to worrthless, you have a small chance to get magic resistance IF you are hit by the same spell 3 times and even then, the stack is up to 150 resistance to only that school of magic and any pvp geared caster will have up to 130 spell penetraion. It makes the talent so weak it’s baffling.

      Acclimation should simply just be changed to straight magic damage reduction or perhaps even a reduced chance for magic attacks to hit similar to the blood elf racial. But even then it seems kind of weak for 3 talent points, especially that low in the frost tree. Maybe roll something into it another talent or add some other kind of minor increase to make it more attractive.

      I personally think perhaps 3 talent points for a 1/3/5% chance for all offensive spells to miss. That way it helps work like intended and stop the occasional CC like fear/sheap/hex ect.

      • Sag says:

        I like acclaimation, and how it works. I do wish they would change it to being at least 50%, maybe even 100% when stacking the resistances. I am pretty sure that within the duration of a pvp battle I have had multiple different resistances increased, so it is powerful in large scale pvp with AoE flying everywhere. That may be more of an issue with pvp in Cat, though I wouldn’t say so from what I have seen thus far.

        I wonder if it would be better if it was only one spell school, and worked more like nether protection for destruction warlocks.

  5. Taters says:

    Just giving some feedback — I’d love to see something similar for Frost and Blood.

  6. Branith says:

    Off topic here but; what happened to the cataclysm wiki site with the talent calculators. Also does anyone know any other good cata alpha/beta leaks sites/forums.

    • Leviatharan says:

      The guy who made the talent calculator was banned (at least according to the message I saw the other day). And the site currently is down, under ‘mysterious circumstances’. 😛

  7. Leviatharan says:

    I think theres a vast number of solutions for Desolation, honestly:
    1. Roll it back into Desecration from whence it came. We’ll be Scourge Striking anyway, may as well benefit. If it becomes a question about the ‘slow’ being hurtful in PvE, just remove the initial slow and make a one-point talent drop down from it making the Desecration slow targets as well for PvP purposes.
    2. Allow it to pop off of Pestilence like Reaping does, or off Blood Boil. That way we don’t have to go back and Blood Strike during our AoE rot.
    3. Make it 1 or 2 talent points and only pop on Blood Strike crits or something. That way the talent point cost buff is countered by the ‘chance’ nerf, and people can choose not to take it.
    4. Roll it into Necrosis or Rage of Rivendare, since they both have the same cost in talents anyway. It will still feel like a ‘must’ talent, but one we’ll be grabbing along the way and feel less regretful about.
    5. Make it a 1 or 2 point talent that only activates for people who put points in another talent (like Corrupting Strikes does). Again, still spending the same talent points, but not going out of our way for all of it. If it arrows down from Reaping, that kills two birds with one stone.
    6. Make it increase another stat that our pets can benefit from instead, like a 2 point talent that increases our strength by 2/4% when we BS instead of a 5 point talent that just increases damage by 5% when we BS. That might fix the recent Endless Winter problem a bit, actually.
    7. Any combination of the above.

  8. Communism says:

    Virulence has to get some sort of change.

    It doesn’t feel like a good talent to put points into. “Here, dump three talents here and we’ll make sure a few select abilities don’t randomly fuck up every once and a while.”

    It just feels lame to pick up, and for tanks it’s even more frustrating due to a reliance on opening moves actually landing on their target. Tanks already fight tooth and nail for hit rating, so even if one manages to get to the magical 8% melee hit, they probably don’t have the talent points to spend to make sure their opening move doesn’t wipe the raid.

    Blizzard acknowledged that the inflated taunt miss chance was not a fun or interesting mechanic. I’d say that virulence (and DK spells in general) is in a similar boat.

    Oh and resists. Resists are stupid.

  9. Sag says:

    I guess I am the only one who doesn’t mind getting spell pen. I feel it’s a sacrifice I make for some of my abilities being able to completely bypass armor. I’d really like for SS to go back to 100% shadow damage, so that my spell pen can really pay off, and maybe using SS against plate would make me feel like I caused a little fear, or at least a “omg wtf hit me” from the person I am trying to DPS down (paladin healers I am looking right at you, I swear I’m considered an annoyance at best).

    I’d like it to be needed by paladins too though. Maybe it is already needed by pallies and I don’t know that (might explain why I am not so good at pally pvp). Maybe with holyshock being baseline it will be something they (someone?) need to look at as well.

    I don’t like blizz’s response being to make everything physical damage, like SS and Divine Storm.

  10. Anaroth says:

    Okay, I missed replying to this over the weekend.

    First of all spell penetration doesn’t do anything in pve anymore.

    What I think consider meant when he was talking about reaping applying to icy talons was my suggestion that you get a death rune from icy touch, rather than the talent somehow buffing it. If you had both blood-strike and icy touch on it then the talent would be plenty powerful, even in an ae situation. I don’t even think you necessarily need blood strike on their at all. Of course that only really works if we have a one rune SS. Strangely enough in live blood strike and icy touch hit about the same for a frost subspec unholy build, and as the trees stand that’s going to be the case in cataclysm. Which tends to lead towards the dangerous shadow-frost / nuking conundrum.

    Increasing death coil damage is a nice thing to have in the tree, at present we don’t choose to get the talents. In cataclysm, morbidity is going to be a bit stronger, given the free death coils we’d get. (Assuming we can get sudden doom and don’t have gcd issues). That said there are some interesting issues there.

    I don’t like the new wandering plague, especially if it still has a 1 second internal-cooldown, and we have diseases with radically different damage ticks.

    I’ve got a pretty radical design choice that could create an interesting play style and resolve some of the issues.
    1) Basically we’re replacing morbidity/unholy blight/wandering plague/crypt fever
    2) We create a new crypt fever/unholy blight to act as the 3rd disease, it’s a 3 point talent, that works like unholy blight did, but does say 30% of your DC damage over 15 seconds. The disease presumably can’t crit.
    3) Wandering plague can then function off the 3rd disease, giving a flat chance for it to provide ae damage.
    4) The increased magical debuff could either be applied at present, which would mean it was spread as we currently do, or it could be based on the new disease, which would mean that pestilence wouldn’t spread it. (At least un-glyphed/talented – you could then do something similar to the FoK treatment).

    I like that unholy blight / wandering plague linkage a lot more than what we have at present, even if it isn’t the 3rd disease.

    Speaking of diseases, for dps builds there’s little actual need to have a long duration frost fever with the current trees, rime gives frost a 45% chance for a free icy touch or howling blast with an obliterate) and unholy only really uses icy touch with frost runes. Thus Epidemic is really only useful for saving you unholy runes. For an unholy build a scourge strike is only going to hit maybe 50% harder then a plague strike, so there is a question as to how useful epidemic will actually be.

    The other major issues with a one rune SS and running in unholy presence is one of GCDs. As it stands unholy is going to be using a lot of GCDs, and it’s hard to think of a resolution to that.

    • Sag says:

      I’m not sure if the spell pen part was directed at me. I realize that spell pen is for pvp. It also makes a world of difference in pvp, esp when fighting a mage, druid and sometimes priests or pallies. Having to enchant spell pen on my cloak and gem for it elsewhere is still a tradeoff because I am not gemming/enchanting for pure DPS stats, just ones that will generally affect the 4 classes I mentioned.

      I do pvp a lot and it is a concern of mine because I saw awesome DK talents that I used in tanking be over the top in pvp. My focus really is the pve portion of the game, and I hated getting nerfed. Honestly DK pvp is pretty sorry now. Yes I am hard to kill, no I really can’t kill anyone that I don’t over gear.

      I feel about as effective as a pet when I am trying to DPS a healer (once again except ones I horribly over gear) because I am most likely not going to kill them, but I’ll be an annoyance. Hopefully a large one.

  11. Alrenous says:

    Given the change to SS, and the fact they’re making current annihilation baseline, OB will almost certainly cost 1 frost and you’ll use it instead of IT for spare frost runes.

    I really like your solution to crypt fever. I just though it should be thrown into masteries, as right now its only function is to make ebon plague a six point talent.

  12. Anaroth says:

    Ah got you now Sag.

    If they’re removing arp pen as a stat, I wonder if they should remove spell pen.

    Unholy has always been in a bit of a tricky place when it comes to balancing between doing spell damage and doing physical damage. If they did switch it back to entirely shadow then we’d be doing more spell damage than physical, although in pve it won’t matter.

    I’m pretty sure the main reason they made scourge strike and howling blast to be one rune attacks was to make death runes more useful for the dps specs, athough their new rune system does kind of help with that too, and with runic empowerment the rune activation patterns will be a lot more random. All this means there’s a lot to process when trying to work out how to do optimal dps, perhaps too much, with all the random elements involved.

    Making everything single rune attacks (like the prototype unholy will be) does mean you can pretty much prioritise the 4 diffferent resources and go from there without having to worry so much about trying to optimise your FU rune production.

    The one major drawback is it does mean that all specs are far more likely to become GCD constrained. Which is already a major issue for unholy even unbuffed. In unholy presence you get 3 runes every 9 seconds (without imp. unholy presence), that’s less than 6 gcds, which with your 3 rune attacks and at least 1 RP dump doesn’t leave much room for other abilities and procs (blood tap/HoW/Outbreak/RunicEmp/SuddenDoom and the like). You get a little leeway with the new rune system, but it’s still pretty tight, and I can’t see how melee haste could possibly reduce our rune cooldowns. You could reduce the gcd, but that would make the class even more latency dependent which is one of the reasons for moving away from the current model. Obliterate would work well as a one rune attack for all three trees. While Unholy has scourge strike, and blood could obviously use death strike there isn’t really a good strike for frost to use with unholy runes. (Easy fix is to put scourge strike in at about the 10 talent point, I’d also improve the disease scaling on it).

    • Minaka says:

      Armor Penetration being removed isn’t a reason for Spell Penetration being removed. Arp is a stat that affects both PvP and PvE gameplay. It affects damage period. It is being removed (from gear) because it’s basically Attack Power with a VERY complicated formula.

      SPELL Penetration, on the other hand, is a PvP-specific stat. It doesn’t replicate another stat, and doesn’t (as far as I know) have an overly mathy formula attached to it.

      My point ISN’T that Spell Penetration shouldn’t be removed. My point is that Armor Pen being removed (from gear) isn’t a good argument for Spell Pen being removed.

      • Roth says:

        Spell Penetration SHOULD be removed (I realize thats not your argument, just to be clear). Resistances in pvp are simply overpowered in their current state. They should reduce damage as they do now but NOT cause certain abilities to sometimes not work…like Strangulate, Chains of Ice, etc.

        Melee classes should not need to gem Spell Penetration just to have their abilities work like they should.

      • Sag says:

        So who remembers the good old days when something like curse of the elements/curse of shadow could provide negative resistances? That was actually before spell pen and hit rating, hell very little gear actually had SP on it at that time. Used to make people crit like mad and it was awesome.

        I think armor pen being removed had something to do with pvp as well. I don’t think that they could find a proper balance for it. Removing 1/3rd of a clothies armor is more damaging than removing 1/3rd of my armor. I’ll still have over 10k, my warlock… he might have about 1k (without demon armor up I know).

        They have discussed removing/changing the way resistances work. Maybe they have changed it already and are happy, but really come Cat there will only be pallies, priests, and mages that can buff resistances. MotW will be changed to be like BoK, meaning that unless priests are putting out shadow protection, or pallies are running that aura (which is actually doubtful) the only class that would have a significant number for magical resistances (that affect us) would be mages. At this point I would probably just make them not available in pvp. I don’t know how to do that, I’m not 100% sold on the idea myself.

  13. Roth says:

    My Unholy wishlist: Scourge Strike made fully magic damage again.

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