3.3.5 – Frost BiS Lists

As promised, here are various BiS lists for Frost. A quick disclaimer – no, I’m not as well versed with Frost as I am with Unholy (although I’m by no means ignorant of the spec), and thus these lists may be slightly more error-prone than their Unholy counterparts. If you notice any errors, certainly bring them to my attention, but I’m relatively confident they’re accurate (aside from expertise/spell hit* weights, but since I provide capped versions, not a worry!).

One more short note – no, I will not be posting these in the Frost thread over at EJ, as I respect Darkside’s stance on the subject of BiS lists (even if I don’t completely agree) and certainly wouldn’t want to show any disrespect or what have you.  You’re obviously free to refer to them and/or discuss them there as you wish.

Anyways, here you go:

[A] All Items

[H] All Items

[A] All Items + Expertise Capped

[H] All Items + Expertise Capped

[A] All non-25-heroic Items

[H] All non-25-heroic Items

[A] All non-25-heroic Items + Expertise Capped

[H] All non-25-heroic Items + Expertise Capped

*For GoD and spell hit capping, simply swap in Ashen Band of Endless Might and/or Garrosh’s Rage as appropriate.

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28 Responses to 3.3.5 – Frost BiS Lists

  1. Shrakx (US-Undermine) says:

    I’m curious as if you tried using Str gemming in red sockets and Str/haste in some yellows, with using more Items that have Haste. How close would the results be between the 2 types of gemming ?

    The best Items with that gemming should be pretty close to the unholy BiS list. Last time I simmed this in Kahorie’s a month ago with my gear that wasn’t that close to BiS yet, I had extremely similar results with the 2 types of gemming.

    If you haven’t done it while finding out the Frost BiS list, I would be able to Sim in a few days for comparison. Since LK heroic requires some degree of AoE on valks, that kind of gemming could be important. especially if you have to go back and forth between unholy and frost for the needs of the raid.

    Thanks a lot for these lists, they are very helpful as always !

    • Consider says:

      Str gemming will likely be about 1.5-3% behind in dps. Nothing all that significant, and I can get a more precise number tomorrow.

      Like you said though, as far as BiS goes, it would just make things all but identical to Unholy.

  2. OtherStuff says:

    Bleh, these posts are extreemly borring and all over the place, your previous posts were WAY more fun/interesting to read…….get back to the meaty stuff! keep that Cata Discussion going….or is there really Nothing else to talk about until we get more info? guess it does get to a point where you discussed everything you can without actually being able to DO and/or Test any of it…

    shrug, been spam checkin this site as one of my new favorites, been extreemly bored the last few…

    • Consider says:

      There’s really not a ton to talk about in terms of Cata until a new build is pushed. There’s just nothing else new, and not much to analyze in regards to the already known information – MotFW and the future of 2H Frost might make for an interesting subject, or perhaps Sudden Doom and the (very decent looking) possibility of DW Unholy, but it’s hard to get too in-depth on such subjects when a lot of the concrete numbers are still up in the air.

      I mean, if there’s something specific you would like my thoughts/analysis on, or if there’s an area of the alpha you would like to know if information is available on, I’ld be happy to do my best, but otherwise… I just can’t make information appear when there isn’t any! Hopefully this lull is some sort of calm before the storm (beta), but who knows.

      At any rate, I apologize if posts focused on the live client aren’t quite as interesting to you as their alpha counterparts, but they’re just as popular and valuable (if not more so in both areas). I’m sure some Cataclysm info will come up before much longer, but until then, there’s plenty of live-server-oriented subjects, such as the recently changed BiS lists, to explore.

      (By the way, amusing – if obviously fake – email address! I chuckled)

  3. Kayfas says:

    Well, as a fairly well versed Frost DK, I have to say I would NEVER run with hit rating that low. In fact, because of our reliance on Glyph of Disease it’s my personal preference to shoot for the spell hit cap.

    Hit cap probably isn’t a necessity, but I don’t think you will ever see a Frost Deathknight aiming for anywhere below 200 hit rating, and I will personally not settle for anything less than 263 (I’m alliance, so I have the Draenei aura)

    • Consider says:

      I’m about to head off to sleep, but I can easily rerun them tomorrow forcing the spell hit cap. That said, I can essentially predict what it’s going to change – Ashen Band of Endless Might instead of Frostbrood Sapphire Ring and/or Garrosh’s Rage instead of Sylvanas’ Cunning. That’s all. Whether it does one or both just depends on which specific set you’re looking at.

      I’ll go through it tomorrow to double-check and ensure my assumption is right, but I’m pretty positive that’s all there is to it.

      • Glossolalia says:

        I’ve actually found that instead of using Tier pants, we can use the gloves and offset heroic 10 Sindra pants (for ArP gemming), that way, we’re sitting at about 25 expertise with the Skeleton Circle instead of the Ashen Band.

        I also use the plate bracers to make up the hit; and the Winding Sheet because we have too many Agi users waiting on an ArP cloak that has never dropped for our guild.

      • Glossolalia says:

        Actually, I forgot to mention that I’m also using the 10 man 264 boots with expertise on them, and in getting the hit boots from Sanctum, I would replace the expertise through gems or using the badge cloak

    • kc102 says:

      I’m running 6% hit, anything more is a dps loss. Same with anything less.

  4. Anonymous says:

    Pls don’t be discouraged by what Otherstuffs has said. I find your recent posts interesting and relevant. For non-theory crafters like myself, your BiS list explanation was insightful. Your BiS lists are much appreciated and I consult them regularly. I wonder if its possible for you to release the stat weights for these BiS lists as a reference?

    • Consider says:

      For Frost at the 284/277 level:
      Strength – 2.87
      Agility – 1.58
      Crit – 2.00
      Haste – 2.30
      ArP – 3.38
      Exp – 1.94
      Hit – 2.93
      Spell hit – 2.05
      Weapon DPS – 7.02
      Weapon Speed – 44.68

      Before people start getting too distraught over the hit/exp values – I’m sorry, but that’s how it is. You can do the math yourself, sim it as many times as you will… hit/exp capping are *not* priorities for Frost on paper. In reality, yes, capping one or both is much more desirable than the numbers may suggest, due to the small margin of error GoD provides, but it is what it is, and *that’s* why I have sets which work solely off the numbers, and sets which force exp/spell hit. If you don’t believe the first is of any actual worth, then simply disregard!

      This is part of why Darkside does not do BiS lists or stat weights ^^.

  5. Jstar says:

    Can we have a blood BiS list as well? 🙂

    I believe it does higher single DPS than Unholy DK with BiS gear.

    • Glossolalia says:

      The talk about Blood being better than Unholy was assuming that Blood Gorged had a 100% uptime (which isn’t really true in a lot of cases).

      There could be more to it than just that but I think that was one of the biggest things skewing Blood’s sim performance.

      • Baadshah of Dawnbringer says:

        I predict Blood DPS becoming a lot “easier” in the sense of properly being able to gear for the spec, once Ruby Sanctum becomes available.
        Why? Because one of the hardest things to do as a Blood DK is maintain a gearset with the ArP cap and still maintain perfect Hit and Expertise caps.

        Enter: Sharpened Twilight Scale

        This trinket + Deathbringer’s Will and a weapon like Shadowmourne takes care of a massive amount of out ArP needs and leaves us plenty of room to take care of them Hit and Expertise caps. If I’m not mistaken, we may even have a couple of leftover red sockets.

        But you’re correct, Blood Gorged has been a huge, huge problem in hard modes. Of course your healers are going to try and compensate for damage, but some cases just won’t allow for this to make up for all the unavoidable AoE going on.
        Still, I will say that in BiS gear Blood is well worth the trouble. It’s a very fun spec and this is our last chance to play it as a DPS spec.

      • Glossolalia says:

        I honestly can’t see Blood becoming competitive. Even before the Twilight scale it was easier to cap ArP for Blood (as the cap is 90%).

        One of the problems though is that there is so much to do for blood, and such little time to do it. I briefly tested it out once I acquired 4×264 tier a few months ago and found that I had a hard time keeping the 4 pc up, just because there were so many runes for me to use. Also, the 264 sigil is completely useless for blood, as you dont DS often enough to keep the stacks up (this is less of an issue obviously because Virulence is more than capable of filling the slot).

        Honestly though, I haven’t seen any evidence that Blood is superior to Unholy single target at all, and even if, there’s the obvious AoE implications (although I do suspect that Blood would be nice for Saurfang adds and LK valks). If you need someone to provide the 10% ap buff then I’m sure Blood is just fine, but it really seems like you’re gimping yourself by not going Frost or Unholy at this point.

  6. Baadshah of Dawnbringer says:

    I’m curious as to why non-Expertise capped sets have been included.
    Shouldn’t Frost DKs go for the cap due to having almost no empty GCDs and also being more penalized if a Frost Strike is ever dodged (the RP is consumed, unlike if a runic ability was dodged)?

    Currently, I’m using the belt dropped by Lord Jaraxxus in 25 man ToC to help me reach the cap. This allows me to also use Scourge Reaver Legplates (taking advantage of all that haste). When I get the Blood Queen necklace however, this will change of course.

  7. vuvuzela says:

    If i am not mistaken none of these lists show which sigil to use unless “Arp gemmeing” means instantly sigil of awareness but i could be wrong though.So if anyone can validate which sigil to use it would be great

    • Glossolalia says:

      I’ve simmed them all, both ArP and Strength gemming and there really isn’t too much difference. Awareness puts out the most theoretical single target with ArP gemming (like 30ish dps over Hanged man with ArP gemming), otherwise use Hanged Man or Virulence.

  8. OtherStuff says:

    I Apologize for my negativity, its just that “lull” you speak of is in the game as well, leaving a big chunk of bored time, so i keep searchin for interesting read and your site was the newest most interesting site i had found – the complaint about BiS lists i guess came from the sites i check most all seem to be posting BiS lists and any other site i can even find about wow seems to be talkin about BiS lists too…it seems to be the main focus on nearly every site…..GSCORE! OMG! rofl…

    Thx for the site and your time, i didnt mean to offend you by any means, was meant to be more of a playful sarcasm….

    thx on the email, im deathly paranoid if email spam, its allready at redicilous levels and i hide as best i can….

  9. Mysiana says:

    I’m kinda with Kayfas on this one… 133 hit rating seems extremely low to me. I would definitely like to see at least a forced melee hit cap. Then again, I am one of those rare types that neurotically gears for hit/exp cap because I hate to miss.

    • Consider says:

      It was forced melee hit. 133 is sufficient when you factor in both draenei aura and NoCS.

      But, yeah, I certainly understand the hit issue. Easily resolved as stated in the little postscript – just swap cloak + ring!

  10. Mysiana says:

    Woops, I must have missed that postscript >.> Sorry. On another note… when did Armor Pen get so high on the stat weights? Was it purely with the inclusion of the new trinket? When do we start gemming for it now? Sorry if I’m being a newb – tank is my main spec, but sometimes I am called upon to dps and frost happens to be my spec of choice.

    • Conwolv says:

      ArP became high on the stat weights in 3.3.3 when Icy Talons and Improved Icy Talons became two separate buffs, making a large majority of our damage come from white hits and obliterates. Over 60% of a frost DKs damage should be coming from physical sources.

      What gemming ArP does is allows your single target DPS to go up by a small margin (as stated above, 1.5-3%) but greatly reduces your AoE damage. This may or may not affect your usefulness in raid.

      Also, I’ve found that Str/Haste gems in yellow sockets are better DPS than str/crit gems, as haste tends to scale better than crit with the ICC buff.

  11. Therris says:

    Quick question, and its probably better suited for EJs and has already been awnsered there but well, i really dotn feel like trawlign through that thread.

    At what lvl of ArP should you start Gemming it?

    Hope someone can awnser this for me 🙂 thnx

  12. Ashdidit says:

    Ok so putting all of the exp cap and hit cap discussions aside. Isnt Str SUPPOSED to be the number 1 gemming stat for ALL DK’s.

  13. Rinroken says:

    Normally Str would be more important, but endgame the numbers you gain become insignificant due to the reduction from armor. With melee and obliterate being 60%(or higher is most cases) of your overall single target dps, having that damage reduced due to armor is critical.

    Yes MOST dks go strength as unholy is more attractive due to large spell dmg, but Frost and Blood gain a lot of their damage through white damage and obliterates.

    Keep in mind that arp stacking doesnt perform well unless you cap so dont gem it wildly.

  14. pakuul says:

    Why is gemming for armor pen better then straight strength for frost?

  15. MrMcPippens says:

    this has made me very confused, because the guy who runs the frost threat on elitistjerks says str > crit > arp > haste, but ur saying almost haste > arp > str > crit, dunno what to believe any more !

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