Build 12803 – Mind Boggled

I had actually dozed off shortly before the patch was revealed and subsequently torn apart by Mmo-champion and others, so consider my delight when I see that we actually had some changes in the latest build. Then consider my disappointment when I actually saw what they are:

Death Knight

Blood

  • Blood Strike – Deals an additional 10% (down from 12.5%) damage for each of your diseases on the target.

Frost

  • None

Unholy

  • Raise Dead – No longer requires Corpse Dust.

My feelings on these changes could best be summed up in three letters. I’m sure you can guess which ones they are!

It’s one thing not to get anything new or interesting in a patch. Hey, if anything, we’re used to that by now! But to get a change which is nothing but a numbers tweak? Even if we were at that stage in our tuning (which we most certainly are not, considering the literal dozen of issues we’ve had since the start of beta and which have only gotten worse, for the most part), what in the world does a 2.5%/disease nerf to Blood Strike accomplish? It doesn’t affect Blood at all, generally speaking, and it hardly affects Frost or Unholy – less than a 1% dps loss for either of the two. Even if we’re solid enough to have our dps balanced, I highly doubt we’re a mere 0.5% over whatever we should be at. Being a numbers guy, I can tell you without a doubt the difference between Frost and Unholy themselves are greater than that number.

What’s somewhat amusing is I was planning on making a post this evening on why people need to relax and not worry since they’ve been getting so riled up as of late. So much for that. Perhaps my reaction to this latest patch is a bit over the top, but it’s the patch on top of the utter lack of blue feedback on top of problems which have been around since the very start of beta on top of issue after issue after lack of dev feedback after lack of dev feedback which makes one so frustrated!

Compare to any other class by any objective, quantifiable metric – number of blue posts received, number of class changes received, current number of bugs/flaws, etcetera – and it’s very apparent this isn’t simply a case of “woe is my class, Blizzard is favoring everyone else”. We *have* received less than others in terms of actual feedback and actual changes, and we *are* more fault-ridden.

A simple blue post saying “yeah, we understand and agree, you guys just haven’t had your time yet” or “yeah, we apologize, but we simply don’t agree you all need what you believe” would ease my mind and those of most DKs in so many ways. Yes, either response is going to give some negative backlash from some portion of the DK community, but the same can be said for any blue post for any class. That’s no reason to punish the masses and ultimately hurt the development of the game (since beta testers can’t give solid feedback if they don’t have a clue what in the world is going on) because some minority may over-react or give you a hard time.

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87 Responses to Build 12803 – Mind Boggled

  1. Rodalpho says:

    Builds aren’t staged or QA’d for testers, they aren’t prepared in any way, they’re simply development snapshots. These tiny changes might have been just the tip of the iceberg, and the rest were added in build 12804 an hour later, and we just missed them. I wouldn’t read anything into it.

    • Consider says:

      I completely understand that, but they’re all us testers have to go by. We can’t always assume that Blizzard already has something more accomplished because 1) if they do, we don’t know what it is anyways, so our feedback is worthless and 2) if they don’t, then assuming otherwise makes our feedback flawed. Short of developers stating something is in store or they’re planning to take the class (or an aspect of the class) in a certain direction, we have no hint at what’s to come, and can only respond to what’s in front of us. For better or for worse, we have no other option.

      That’s what makes the lack of blue posts for the class so devastating; it severely weakens the quality of feedback beta testers can provide because we have no clue what’s going on.

      • Hinenuitepo says:

        Otherwise your feedback is purely about what DKs are like *right now* in beta, and that’s not only been covered ad nauseum, but the only accurate feedback that could be given in that case is, ‘they suck.’ 😦

  2. Suffer says:

    I’m pretty angry. Not angry where i take it with me when i leave my computer to do other-worldly things. But once i start playing WoW, it gets me angry. Even discussing it on the internet gets me angry about this.

    I honestly don’t know what they’re thinking.

    What the hell can i possibly say that hasn’t be said already by beta-testers and people on this blog?

  3. Roth says:

    What does a minor nerf to an ability only used by 1 spec supposed to accomplish anyway? Theres absolutely no way were at the point in beta where its time to tune numbers FOR ANYONE, let alone single abilities.

  4. Nessad says:

    Sigh… Agree.

    Hey, Why don’t we create a new DK thread every patch with our amazing DK news? Surely those threads will provide a nice ammount of feedback in a very organized manner that blizzard can read and realize we are very happy with the very clear direction that our class is taking…

    Ok I suck at sarcasm.

  5. Zumal says:

    It times like these when I feel really great about my shadow priest alt. He was awesome in BC and he’s looking even more awesome in cata. Get your DK shit together Blizzard.

    • Aram says:

      Honestly, I laughed when I saw the change. Its so irrelevant because you’ll be using it at most twice every disease reset with Frost. (Not counting Runic Empowerment of course).

      Now, there could be some method to Blizzard’s madness and that this is just a piece of a larger jig saw puzzle that is happening behind the scenes. They could at least tell us how its going to look like at the end.

      But knowing Blizzard, they usually don’t say anything unless they’re ready and based on how they lock, delete, etc any thread about the class on the Live forums, they sure aren’t ready.

  6. Roth says:

    Shamans already have a post from GC about build 12803 on the live forums. /headdesk

  7. Noin says:

    I’ve gone back and looked at the Blue Posts since Beta (thank you, World of Raids, for having a much better Blue tracker than MMO-Champ), and it seems–though I’m not 100% sure–that Rogues are in the same boat as far as feedback and attention goes. They’ve gotten very few changes, same as we, and very little feedback, same as we.

    I know next to nothing about how Rogues play or their current status as a class in the Beta, but if you really want to go down the road of “We’ve been shafted,” you should know we aren’t really alone.

    I sighed at the lack of changes in the build, but there’s not much else to be done. Back to waiting for the next build.

    • Hinenuitepo says:

      Actually, Rogue changes, sparse as they are, look several times better than anything out there for DKs. In fact, I’ve had a few thoughts (sorry Hinenuitepo) about going back to my rogue as my main…. which I really don’t want to do.

  8. Anonymous says:

    Are the 3 letters FML, LOL, or WUT?

  9. WaffleDK says:

    I’m a very patient person and I’m generally reserving judgment until we’re closer to release, but with the past couple builds having little except bizarre or pointless changes combined with the lack of feedback, I’m honestly starting to waver a bit.

    It says a lot when I’m having more fun playing my elemental shaman than my DK…

  10. Azerius says:

    This is starting to get stupid
    It’s not like we are not giving any feedback, but as it is at the moment is there any point?
    It just all seems to be ignored and fall on closed ears

    -1 optimism
    +1 pessimism

  11. Zeran says:

    I guess I’m an extremely patient person, but I look at the changes and sigh then scroll down to get a feel for which alt will be my favored son in the next expansion. I honestly, and openly admit that my mage got benched when he took too many nerfbats to the nuts, at that point my DK became my main and I’ve yet to set her aside to heal from the nerf bat (got very close towards the end of Ulduar, but blizz saved her from becoming a bank-alt for my druid).

    I’m still terribly excited about all the cool changes coming in cataclysm. I wish I could say that about the dk-changes, but c’est la vie. I vote that we comb over whatever else interests us and wait patiently to see what Bliz does about our, how shall I say, current state. If we get close to being “done” and are still SNAFU, then I’ll join in on the forum maddness (just like a bunch of us did on the Death Strike hot-nerf).

  12. Dude1 says:

    I’m to the point that i’m done tracking beta, death knights are obviously the red headed step child class of going into cataclysm. Doesn’t surpise me one bit, I just won’t reactivate after this month goes out. Game not worth paying for, not going to continue paying for ICC for another 6 months. Won’t be one of the crowd that says oh well let’s hope Blizzard fixes it before cata. After no responses for two months now it’s not worth it. Maybe after 4.1 people that play dks will feel they have a part in wow again. Till then.

  13. frostfright says:

    Meh.

    I keep hoping for something new and cool in each build. Something that says “GOTCHA! We’ve been working on you all along and the minor changes to Dirge and such were just tiny parts of these AWESOME changes we’ve had in store!” but I keep getting shot down. The Blood Strike thing is hilarious, though.

    Nothing I can really say except “maybe next week.”

    • Waylandyr says:

      Beta builds are now the equivalent of loot RNG for us. Awesome.

      • Anonymous says:

        Heh, that’s kind of funny.

        *guild kills Blizzard*
        RL – Alright, doing loot. Roll main spec [Cataclysm Beta Build 12803]
        Druid rolls 80
        Warlock rolls 100
        Hunter rolls 100
        Shaman rolls 79
        DK rolls 4
        DK – FML
        RL – Top 2 reroll
        Warlock – Eh, actually it’s more of a sidegrade I’ll pass.
        Hunter – yeah me too actually
        Warrior – Why did the DK even roll? This Build is BiS for Druids.
        DK – Because I haven’t gotten a good build drop in months.
        Druid – blaem teh rng scrub lol.

  14. Suffer says:

    And you know, things wouldn’t be half as bad if the only replies lately to DK posts werent GhostCrawlers Curbstompin the QQers that happen to be DK’s posts.

    I want a piece of the “we’re working on this part of the DK because it needs more iteration” cake.

  15. Rebellion says:

    Given this was the “range increase” patch (because thats pretty much 90% of the changes on mmo-c), I hope they just forgot us ;).

  16. Skullflower says:

    Hilarious, really hilarious. Now cut the crap Blizzard.

  17. Caeden says:

    I just want to be able to adequately tank. There’s no way I can do that as a blood tank as it is on beta. My old prot paladin main from TBC is starting to look awfully tempting again.

    • Leviatharan says:

      *Doesn’t actually know anything about blood tanking, and would like to learn what changes he can make to his talent calculator to fix the issue*…

  18. Roth says:

    Until Cataclysm goes live, Ill continue to believe we are not done. Theres just no possible way Blizzard can consider the class finished. Theres no way. Our pariah treatment atm has me thinking that a few things could be going on.

    1.) Blizzard currently doesnt know how to fix our multitude of issues because of DK complexity. They accomplished their goal of making each spec feel unique, but the problem is, the uniqueness of each spec is giving them problems they arent sure how to solve. Festering Strike could be a perfect example of this. They had to introduce a strike thats only useful for one spec and thats made them realize that we need more work than they initially realized. Runic Power could be another example. Runic Power (presumably, given Frost’s mastery) will be incredibly valuable for Frost and Blood (primarily because Blood has so many free GCDs atm). But for Unholy, Runic Power isnt quite as valuable as Runes.

    or

    2.) Blizzard has the solutions but doesnt know (or isnt thrilled by) the means of achieving those solutions. More precisely, Blizzard has point C but cant figure out or agree upon points A and B.

    or

    3.) Its the reverse of number 2. Perhaps they have points A and B but cant figure out C.

    If we were “done” in Blizzards eyes, Im sure they would simply come out and make a post telling us “we think DKs are fine and were going to focus our time and energy elsewhere.” The fact that they havent done that (or said anything at all lately) leads me to believe that their may be more internal discussions/debates/disagreements going on about DKs.

    Essentially, they arent giving us feedback because they dont have anything concrete atm.

  19. Nikolos says:

    I love how the Shamans post a “Changes” thread and GC will post in it 4-5 times addressing issues and giving feedback, yet DKs get silence. Or worse, they get told to stop QQing.

  20. Disargeria says:

    Warlocks and Rogues are in a similar quiet boat.

    • Roth says:

      Dunno if thats still true about Warlocks. He posted a number of times in their threads last night.

    • Rebellion says:

      The diffrence is you can see them actually working on both classes, at least the warlock. If you look at the warlock talents and the changes each patch you see a clear design goal, looking at he dk just makes you think: “Huh,what ?”. The warlocks even got one of their main complaints adressed that they wanted since the dawn of vanilla beta: soul link baseline.

      Also there was some feedback in the not so distant past, while the last dk feedback was back when the beta started. Alot of people would be already satisfied if they knew what blizzard thinks about the current incarnation of the dk talent trees. Just a “we have to do something about it” or “we think its fine” is all we want to know.

  21. Roth says:

    Heres some good news on a related front.

    “We were sad to see this talent go, because we thought it was cool too. However, BM just had too many damage-oriented talents, which was preventing those hunters from being able to pick up the utility or fun talents, which in turn violated a major goal of the talent tree revamps.”

    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26560567148&pageNo=1&sid=1#2

    Considering all DK specs are in the exact same boat as BM Hunters (too many dps/tanking talents preventing us from picking up the utility/fun talents)…I think its safe to assume Blizzard “doesnt” think DKs are finished.

    • frostfright says:

      Yeah, that kinda sucks for BM, though. Rhumba was one of the most fun/funny talents in the game. That they scrapped it instead of scrapping something less creative is disappointing.

      I expect Corpse Explosion (once they finally acknowledge it) will have met a similar fate, and unless they turn it into a battle rez of appropriate strength, Raise Ally as well.

  22. Rix says:

    One issue I have been thinking about and not sure if someone already brought it up, but 2-hand frost has to chose between the fallen crusader and razor ice rune forge correct? For balance wouldn’t it seem to make since to add a razor ice mechanic to Might of the frozen wastes? Making it unattractive for duel wield as 3 points is kinda expensive for being able to go duel FC while allow frost scaling to be generally equal?

  23. BloodyFox says:

    After this one: http://wowraid.com/tracker/b10/t26560836854/blizz-are-happy-with-death-knights-on-beta.html#20 I’m quite sure the devs think that DKs are farther than they really are. As it seems, they don’t even acknowledge the problems. The OP in this thread brought up some valid concerns, even though briefly, they have been dismissed/ignored by GC and just filed under QQ. This is the first DK blue in a while, but giving no dev-feedback, just locking the thread.

    Dear, Consider, I think it’s time to overcome your reservations and start posting your blog entries on the forums or linking your stuff. It’s time something changes in the mindset of Blizz.

  24. Noin says:

    If you read the many replies you are so enviously quoting, you’d know that only one of those was actually anything about class mechanics specifically, and *all* of them were only to clarify some of the datamined info people were freaking out about. The rest were about gameplay concepts, design, or GC trying to remind people that the developers are simply several builds ahead.

    Did anybody else notice that one of the Hunter threads got a “This is QQ. Give us something to work with.” response? That means GC thinks Hunters are done. Obviously. *deadpan*

    I still don’t understand why people are freaking out. I really, really don’t. But apparently if one of our strikes gets its numbers tweaked by a percentage, a change that probably was nothing more than an idle data change and has no implications whatsoever considering the development of our class, suddenly DKs have a right to throw up their hands and panic.

    At this rate, my patience with the DK community will run out far sooner than my patience with Blizzard, if it hasn’t already.

    • frostfright says:

      I honestly don’t know why you’re expecting people to be patient when they see other classes getting developer interaction on a regular basis. Do you not understand human nature or something? We’ve BEEN waiting patiently for months, and seen nothing for it. Don’t act as if the reaction you’re seeing is abnormal… It’s not.

    • Leviatharan says:

      First of all, thats still more lovin’ than the DK forums have been getting. We’ve received diddly-squat as of late. But GC has the time to talk to every other class MULTIPLE TIMES (except Rogues, but we have no idea what’s up in the Rogue community so we’re not sure if they’re satisfied or not… prolly not though), and just tells us to stop QQ’ing. This gives people the doubt that Blizz has an idea of what’s going on- and if they do have something going in their attic, they should tell us because things like the Dirge change make no sense out of context.
      Its not the fact that “one of our strikes got its numbers tweaked by a percentage” so much as what it means. Like Consider said, we’re not supposed to be at the point where any numbers are getting tweaked for the class because so much else has higher priority- Runic Empowerment needs tuning, the Unholy DW builds need obliterating, we’ve got no true CC aside from a single Frost talent even though it’s emphasized in Cata, Unholy’s AoE being completely destroyed by the loss of WP/the Pest nerf/the lack of things to spend runes on, Outbreak being unused by Unholy due to lack of EP, etc.- much less a *single one* of our strikes that only one spec will use.

      • Noin says:

        It’s funny, because despite the recent posts in threads with “Shaman” in their titles, Shaman have gotten almost no feedback or treatment since Beta started as well. Nothing in the threads for the past few days could qualify as such, as they were all mostly GC, like last night, talking about design concepts and generalities.

        In reality, no, Blizzard hasn’t talked to all other classes multiple times. They’ve spent an inordinate amount of time on Paladins, Warriors, and Priests. Hunters, and Warlocks have gotten some moderate tweaking; Druids less so. Mages have gotten some changes, but little discussion from the Blues. (Then again, the Mage community’s handling of this Beta has been really stellar, though they’ve an advantage with Affix as their herald.)

        To say that DKs are being singled out is utterly contrary to the reality of things. At best, it is ignorance. Two other classes have gotten the same treatment as we have. It is a simple fact of development, given limited time and resources, that some classes would be worked on later in Beta than others.

        Your frustration is natural and understandable, yes, but just because something is “natural” does not make it wise, prudent, or worthwhile. You can either continue to have patience and wait to see what happens, or you can throw up your hands and abandon ship for another class. There are no other options available to you, and the latter one is certainly foolish at this stage in development.

        In the end, I presume that people are generally intelligent and that the people on this Blog, having read Consider’s own posts warning against freaking out, would understand that panic and flustered protests don’t accomplish anything in these situations, and that there are far more likely and reasonable explanations for the silence than the end of the world.

        In short, I expect people to be mature and intelligent. If that’s too much to expect of people in this day and age, then I see a far better reason to get depressed about something. 😉

  25. Andeus says:

    @Noin

    I think you misunderstood the whole issue, but first let me say that, if I remember correctly, Mages had quite a few discussions with both GC and Kalgan a while ago on many changes. Now on the whole blue issue:

    I don’t think anyone wants blue posts just for attention, you say that Shamans have only gotten some design concepts or generalities, well that’s what we want. Really, it should be enough. The problem is that we don’t even have that to fuel a discussion, we are not really sure on how to comment on ability X or Y since we don’t really know its design purpose. Like someone said, think of our abilities like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, we don’t want them to tell us where to put it, just saw us a glimpse of the whole image and we can go on from there.

    Note how Consider mentioned that everyone in the “official” thread talks about Runeforges. If you actually go and read that discussion you’ll see that they are discussing theories about them based on what we know from WotLK, since that’s pretty much what we have on our hands at the moment. Everything that is Cataclysm-based is a dead end for now.

    I’ve said on a previous comment that we are the last class who is gonna get a pass and I still believe it. I think its the best way since they will be able to see what we lack compared to everyone else (speed boosts, CC, buffs etc) and they can just give us that. I even think that in a way, if they don’t run out of time before they are done, this will work in favor for us. Just be patient.

    • Noin says:

      @Andeus

      And so have we. We’ve gotten about as much attention as Shaman and Rogues. There are 3 classes in the Beta that really haven’t gotten much work beyond the first general pass at the start of Beta. We aren’t alone. To say otherwise is self-serving and disingenuous.

      We know what Blizzard’s general intent is for us. We don’t know the latest development in that effort, however. There’s a big difference between those two, and the latter doesn’t justify panic.

      Do I think it would be wise or helpful for GC or whoever to touch briefly with DKs and try to address some of their concerns? Yes. But I hardly think it is wise to demand or whine for such a thing. As I’ve said before, they may simply not have worked on that or they just aren’t ready to tell us about it, and they certainly won’t be willing to do so if we get petulant about it.

      Patience.

      • Consider says:

        Shaman? Shaman have received quite a bit of direct feedback throughout beta, and numerous iterations of change. Their talent trees are well-along and adhere to the new design philosophy. Putting us on the same level as them is, unfortunately, untrue and unfair. Although they may still have some issues, they’re very far along, relatively speaking. I’m certainly no expert on the class, but I do have an 80 shaman, and follow their news regularly, so am not speaking in complete ignorance.

        Rogues are probably the one class which we can best be compared to in terms of “attention”, if any, yes. But certainly not shaman!

        We know their general intent from a couple months back. We have no way of knowing if any aspect of it has changed since then – which is quite possible and even likely, considering what little development of that intent we’ve seen has failed on multiple fronts and thus may have caused rethinking of this or that. And although it might not really matter for the general populace, it is somewhat important that the beta community knows whats going on, at least to some minor extent. Otherwise, how can we give feedback? At this point, the testers are simple reiterating what’s been said for months now, and although repetition and more expansive explanations might not hurt, we’re not saying anything new because we know no more than we did at the start. Our feedback is somewhat invalidated.

        So, yes, not knowing the latest development (or even knowing if there has been any development) in that effort might not justify “panic”, but then again, nothing in a game justifies panic! It does justify a minor amount of regret, however, as a tester, knowing you’re there to provide feedback and you’re crippled from doing so!

        Obviously demanding or whining never helps. That goes without saying. That said a portion – the minority, certainly – of a community being petulant doesn’t mean they should resist or hold back when their communication would greatly benefit the quality of testing and feedback received from the more productive, understanding majority. Punish that minority – thread locks/forum bans/whatever, if necessary, and move on.

        It’s like when you were in elementary school and the teacher gave the whole class some sort of punishment because one kid was acting up. Not the best way to deal with the problem!

  26. frostfright says:

    Actually Noin, there is a third option! I can be disappointed and generally unsatisfied with the current state of things, and make that opinion known, WHILE waiting for the changes that may or may not be coming. There is compromise to be had, and being that I love throwing pity parties, I will choose that compromise. ;D

    • Leviatharan says:

      I already took that compromise. I’m not giving up on DKs just yet, I’m just generally annoyed that Blizz hasn’t given us a clue as to what’s going on in their minds.

    • Noin says:

      Hmm, clever. 😛

      I would guess your post is made in jest, but there are some who are probably following its advice more than one would think.

      Yes, you can protest all you like. It wastes energy, accomplishes very little, and makes you unhappy and irritable. If that’s your fancy, be my guest, but permit me to point out that it’s a stupid idea. 😉

  27. Andeus says:

    Also on the matter of Blood Strike:

    A week ago, Blizzard HQ, WoW Development Offices:

    *Designer 1 enters Designer’s 2 office*
    Des1: – Hey dude.
    Des2: – Oh..hey man.
    Des1: – What are you doing?
    Des2: – Not much, just messing around with the Death Knight kit.
    Des1: – Oh, have you come up with anything?
    Des2: – Hm, well…you see I’ve been trying increasing the damage from their special strikes around 20% while reducing a small amount from their openers to balance things out. So in essence each tree’s special strike can feel more like a button that hurts you know…
    Des1: – Uh-huh
    Des2: – …so you build up all these diseases and stuff and when you hit, lets say scourge strike, the end result has more oomph, ya know and….wait, did you want to tell me something?
    Des1: – Um yeah, the guys down in the tech sent me to tell you that they would start pulling data for a new snapshot to push as beta.
    Des2: – Wait, Wat? And you tell me now? Shit, ok ok..let me see..Scourge Strike reverted, Plague Strike reverted…Icy touch reverted…Pain and Suffering
    Des1 cuts in: Oh, tried new ability?
    Des2: ..Eh? Yeah, man you should have seen it when I was testing it earlier. Ok, deleted. Frost Strike back to normal…hm what am I forgetting? Crap! Blood Strike
    *Message appears on the screen that data has started pulling to the main server*
    Des1: Oops, too late

    * Both stare at the screen with blank faces*

    Des1: Haha, think their faces when they see only THAT change in a week from now
    Des2: …
    Des1: I bet it’s gonna fire up blogs and forum posts.
    Des2: 😦
    Des1: I’ll even tell Greg not to give them any heads up or anything on the forums just for effect.
    Des2: Facepalms on his desk

    • Consider says:

      Heh, fair enough, but you have to understand how incredibly minor the Blood Strike nerf truly is. It only affects one spec, and it’s maybe a 0.25% dps nerf (if that) overall. Unless BS is getting some increased importance somewhere for one of the specs, the nerf doesn’t really do much of anything. It’s rather random.

      • Andeus says:

        It was more of a (bad) joke to lighten up the grim atmosphere that’s building up lately 😛

        Yes, no matter what they were trying to do, 2.5% is very small unless they were trying something along the lines of “Your Festering Strike increases the damage of your next Blood Strike by 200%” so in that scale it could be a big enough change for fine-tuning.

        Hmm..no, that wouldn’t work either. Ye forget it, it was just a joke 😛

  28. Gliere says:

    It occurs to me that perhaps we can be doing something to help ourselves here. I think that if we had a concise, well-updated list of what the community has been discussing as problems with death knights in beta — even just a list of links to good posts — then we could point to that and say, “Here are the things we’re worried about.” Such a list could include links to discussion threads or specific posts that are of good quality and relevance. Even just a few links to some of Consider’s blog entries from the last few weeks would be an excellent start.

    Unfortunately, I cannot do this myself: not only am I not in the beta and therefore can’t post there and do not have a good first-hand feel for the problems of the class, I would not even have the time to keep such a list up to date — especially if it had its desired effect. If there is anyone here who feels qualified to do this, feel free to give it a shot, and know that at least one DK player would be grateful.

    • Andeus says:

      A thread like that was created today, where some guys from the beta thread (Consider included) posted all the DK concerns we would like to see answered.

      Here’s the link:

      http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26560497138&sid=2000

      Note that it was posted after GC made his posts for today and its a weekend, so let’s give it a couple of days and hope for the best 😛

      • Leviatharan says:

        Here’s to hoping this one isn’t locked as I hear many others were.

      • Andeus says:

        As far as I know the only thread that got locked was the one that got the blue post couple of days ago and in a way it was justified since it had a QQ feeling around it. Have there been more locked threads apart from that one?

        Anyway, the thread is concise and well written so they worst that could happen is for it to get ignored. Can’t see how they can lock it in its current state.

      • Consider says:

        Indeed. The two DK threads locked this week deserved to be locked. Of course, they didn’t really require a blue post when doing so, in my opinion, but I’m sure GC had his reasons.

      • Gliere says:

        Well, I suppose that’s what I get for not posting this when I thought of it — I’d checked the forums for something like this then, but not this morning when posting. 😉

        Regardless, thanks for pointing it out for me. And, more importantly, I want to thank all of you who contributed to that thread, directly and indirectly. The thread looks great to me; hopefully others agree and help keep it QQ-free.

  29. Aram says:

    I think its worth pointing out that while Rogues haven’t gotten the same level of communication, their trees are much better than Death Knight trees. You can progress down a tree and have the option of getting utility talents and other non-DPS talents which is one of Blizzards stated goals.

    Rogues are much further along than Death Knights.

    • Consider says:

      My knowledge of rogues is probably the least of any class. As is my interest in them ^^.

      • Noin says:

        Rogues are like Canadians. Nobody cares about them. No offense to Canadians. 😉

        I dunno about Rogues. There’s very little Rogue discussion in the Beta Class Discussion forums compared to the massive Hunter, Mage, DK, and other class topics, though that could just be a reflection of popularity. The class certainly does seem cleaner and further along than many others at the moment, but Rogues are a rather…mathy, clean-cut, and solid class to begin with. They haven’t gotten much tweaking probably because they haven’t needed much tweaking. One of the advantages of Energy, I suppose.

        The biggest concern I have about DKs is we still haven’t seemed to have found our “place.” That’s a vague complaint, to be sure, and it’s hard for me to put my finger on it or put it into words, but I think Consider has touched on it before: we’ve been on a roller-coaster since our birth, and it’s getting a little tiresome. The rune change is evidence of that alone.

        On the other hand, roller-coasters might be preferable to no change at all.

  30. Noin says:

    @Consider:

    I’ve pretty much count from the Twitter discussion on 7/16, where all the classes got some good feedback, and Shaman haven’t gotten many posts since then. They’ve gotten some feedback, especially in the past few days, but not much, and certainly none that can compare to the multitudes of Paladin, Priest, and Warriors posts since then. I would not put Shaman quite on the level of Rogues or DKs, who’ve had naught but silence since the Twitter discussion, but Shaman certainly haven’t received much attention compared to the other classes since then.

    And remember that Shaman aren’t getting a resource overhaul, so it makes sense they’d be “further” along, relatively speaking than us. In that light, though, you could just as easily ask why they haven’t given DKs any attention when they need more work. That’s a legitimate complaint. Who knows why they do things in the order they do.

    It seems clear to me that they’re working very hard on some classes while putting DKs, Rogues, and possibly Shaman on the back burner. Again, who knows why–if only we had some spy bots inside Blizzard HQ–but there’s not much we can do about it. It’s probably just the development cycle. *shrug*

    It’s quite frustrating for someone who isn’t in the Beta and can’t even provide knowledgeable feedback directly, but I still highly object to the-sky-is-falling rhetoric. War Tools offers pretty good catharsis in that area, though maybe I just enjoy playing and iterating on imaginary talent trees too much. 😉

  31. Roth says:

    Which is still 5 more responses than weve gotten lately.

  32. Scuzoid says:

    Blood Shield. Our mastery and our base “block” (DS heal) is wholly dependent on us not using our 30 second AoE, our 1 minute defensive cooldown, or manually disease refreshes. When you do all of this every time it’s required, you lose 4/6’s of your potential “Block+crit blocks” per minute. Seems pretty ridiculous I have to forgo my mastery and my block just to do what every other tank does.

    Death Rune Mastery. Meanwhile, when I do have the opportunity to actually use my mastery, my threat is balanced around other tanks threat (And it most certainly is. Without DRM I can do at MOST 3 blood boils per 20, where the other 3 tanks can do 4 Swipes/Thunderclaps/Hammer of Righteousness per 18) to suggest I should have to use my death runes on more survival cooldowns (VB/Non-Wotn Rune Tap) and let go of my block “chance” for another ten seconds.

    One Death Strike per minute. One dps tree with a CC that has a pve duration no where near it’s cooldown. One dps tree that can be mechanically different in four ways (High/low haste = frost/unholy presence, 2h/dw = SS+Fes/BS+IT) I still fail to see how this isn’t a case for “major class changes in future beta patches.” Yes, dk’s may not be “done” but can anyone here say “Implementing most of consider’s suggestions wouldn’t be a major class change, it would just be some minor tweaking.” Some minor tweaking isn’t going to fix this, and it sure seems as though that’s all we’re going to get till patch 4.0.8.

    My prot paladin is 75.

    • Aram says:

      This is why they haven’t done anything yet. There is no simple answers to any of the questions that surround DKs. We have so many mechanical and core flaws, that it will take some serious revision to fix.

      If they ship the class as it is today on beta, I can count the number of people who will play the class on one hand. They have to fix it and they will.

      • Scuzoid says:

        You seem to have missed the reason I called the “zero future major class changes.” into question. You can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/27dhjrh

        I tend to agree with Primuz and his assumption blizzard feels fairly comfortable with what they’ve done so far, and we shouldn’t be expecting much aside from number fluctuations (As we see with the most recent blood strike change.) What I don’t agree with is how they managed to come to that conclusion and the consensus shared among many that states “Wait and see.”

      • Noin says:

        “No further major class changes are planned for the beta. From here out it will be primarily tuning.”

        This statement is highly open to interpretation, not to mention it’s a very general statement from an interview. Do not try to read so much into it.

        But let’s think about what “major class changes” might mean. Chilton was referring to changes to fundamental class mechanics. Paladins have gotten Holy Power, Hunters have gotten Focus, Warriors have gotten Rage normalization, and DKs have gotten our Rune Changes. If I’m leaving certain classes out, remind me, but I’m pretty sure none of the other classes are getting their resources or such reworked heavily.

        Our problems do not require another rune revamp. They require tweaking and tuning, as has been said before. Numerous tweaks and nob-turns in many areas, perhaps, but nothing terribly beyond what we’ve already been given.

        I honestly don’t know why people are jumping to conclusions about this. If DKs are so clunky and un-fun on Beta, do you really think Blizzard is going to let the class go through with *no* changes or polishing with several more months to go? Do you really think that?

        The simplest explanation is they haven’t worked on us, or they’ve given us only scant attention, so they don’t have any solutions to release to us. No need to get all worked up about it. Frustrated, maybe, but not worked up.

  33. Nahela says:

    Let’s see how long I can keep running our beta feedback thread without blue responses before I lose my mind. Taking bets!

  34. xtatik says:

    I don’t get why they are so adamant on not responding to any of the DK threads (besides troll/QQ threads) A simple response goes a long way and is definitely better than nothing!

    • Andeus says:

      I think, to be honest, that we kinda overwhelmed him with many and, some of them, complex questions that he can’t just give a simple answer. Hell, some people might deem his simple response unsatisfactory, which would be wrong on our part, but these are forums and you never know who will pop up 😛

      But it’s kinda their fault on that matter. When you leave issues unanswered, more tend to add up over time. Couldn’t help it.

  35. Raxxnamus says:

    IMHO the silence is down to the fact that they havent quite decided how to fix us yet.

    They want to try and find fixes that mean they dont have to back track on the new rune system 😀

    • Ashe says:

      Consider and other intelligent members of the DK community, I would love to get some discussion going in the thread I have recently started: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26560497691&sid=2000
      Sorry if you don’t have Beta forum posting ability :-/

      • Reblellion says:

        I know it isn’t much, but I like your ideas and would support them if I were in beta :-).
        The Unholy/Frost 2H/DW issue is bugging me since they made frost the DW tree. It never really fitted, therefore unholy was alwalys in danger (and sometimes succumbed to it) of turning into a dw tree w/o even offering specific dw support. Frost on the other hand of course failed as 2h tree, because dw is so strong thanks to its ridiculous scaling that two (actually one) talents already made 2h impossible.

        I also appreciate the “new” abilities, as they seem reasonable and quite fitting for the class. Also when it comes to RE, while it is supposed to give us more freedom with our rotation, that is actually not what a dps dk needs. DKs don’t need random runes coming back that you can’t even use, except for IT, BS or PS – which most of us agree are not worth using outside of their basic purpose of disease appling or death rune generating.

      • Leodar says:

        I don’t have beta permissions, but I read the thread. While you put a lot of thought into this thread, I’m hate to rain on the parade by pointing out that on a number on occasions Blizzard has stated that they are committed to making the frost tree the DW tree, and to provide support for 2H in the same tree. If they want to differentiate the trees more accurately, they should just simply place the talents for MotFW and NoCS out of reach after 31 points have been spent in unholy. I think this is the way they handled the Fury tree for warriors and it makes a lot of sense.

        I’m not saying your ideas are bad in any way, like I said, its within reason and well thought out – but it doesn’t fit Blizzard’s vision of the class, and therefore may very well be ignored.

        Also, I think there is an over-emphasis on the frost tree, which aside from the general DK bugs (RE, RP gen, etc.) appears to be in a much better place than tanking in blood or DPSing in UH, at least from the information I have gather here and at other forums.

        I think you will find more feedback (once they decide to give DKs any) by expending your energy on suggesting fixes to the current bugs and abilities. Of course, if might be just as effective to do nothing, as the devs are clearly not ready to work on tweaking our class.

      • Reblellion says:

        Back then when they announced Wrath they told us we could customize our runes, back when they released wrath they stated they want to keep all three trees viable in every aspect, when the beta started they told us they want to keep frost for dw and make unholy a 2h tree but let 2h frost as a possibility for the people that were disapointed with blood beeing the tanking tree.

        See a pattern ? There are often things that have to change, because they don’t work out the way they want them to.

  36. Dude1 says:

    Not sure why people don’t realize that Blizzard does this on purpose. Death knights were the most popular class coming out of wrath. So it’s time for them to be the least popular so Blizzard breaks them on purpose then ignores the public. They will stay bad a while before Blizzard fixes them. Instead of actual class balance it’s always been flavor of the month.

  37. Branith says:

    For the life of me I cant fathom why Blizzard just doesnt convert RE into something like this:

    Runic Empowerment:
    When you use your Death Coil, Frost Strike, or Rune Strike ability, you have a 45% chance to make your next Festering Strike, Death Strike or Necrotic Strike cost no runes but generate no Runic Power. This ability can not happen more then once in 12 secs.

    This turns RE into a very powerful utility skill by allowing all 3 specs to either make use of Festering strike for PvE, Necrotic Strike for PvP, or for more healing from Death Strike, as a replacement for us losing all of our self healing from talents/presences. This is very strong but not OP and not more so then any other class ability. Hell you could fiddle with the 45% number but id reckon thats pretty safe number.

    You could also fix the rest of the class by making Nerves of Cold Steel a Frost baseling ability and tuning Sudden Doom into a 2h only ability. If they did those 3 things id be happy and could get around our other issues.

    • Andeus says:

      Another idea: make it something along the lines of

      …gives you a 45% chance to gain the Runic Empowerment buff which then separates into:

      Blood Empowerment: Makes your next Blood ability free
      Frost Empowerment: Makes your next Frost ability free
      Unholy empowerment: Makes your next Unholy ability free

      In essence you have 45% chance to get one of these 3 and thus there’s an equal 33.3% chance on which one you’ll get.
      It accomplices the same thing as the current RE, it has RNG management requirements from the player and in a way it resembles an ability-school based clearcast.

      • frostfright says:

        But that leaves the problem with the current implementation intact. For instance, If Frost gets an Unholy Empowerment, what does it use? The only thing it can use is Plague Strike or Necrotic Strike, two woefully poor options in PvE. If it gets a Blood Empowerment? Blood Strike. Lame. Blood has the same problem with an Unholy Empowerment, and Unholy has a similar problem if it gets a Blood Empowerment.

        The problem stems from the fact that using disease applicators is not fun. They don’t hit hard, and we ONLY use them because they buff our hard-hitting strikes and give us DoT damage. Diseaseless Blood was popular because it did good damage while taking out the boring IT/PS part of our rotation.

        If you want to keep the random empowerment aspect, you have to give Frost something to do with Unholy and Blood runes, Unholy something to do with Blood runes, and Blood something to do with Unholy runes. Otherwise it becomes a random number game that just isn’t fun 67% of the time.

      • Rebellion says:

        Well, what about Oblit for Frost and Festering strike for Unholy and .. dunno .. maybe Deathstrike for blood ? I know it is clunky when it comes to blood but that is the wa y blood is. A free FeS is kinda usefull for all specs, oblit no longer consumes diseases so therefore no problem there either and deathstrike might be weak but better than nothing.

      • frostfright says:

        Festering Strike is classified as a Frost ability, actually (It doesn’t use an Unholy rune, and is in the Frost part of the spellbook). Death Strike works, sure.

        If they changed FeS to be an Unholy ability, maybe your random clearcast empowerments would work.

      • Andeus says:

        Well that’s why I preferred a school over runes. I forgot to mention it. but it could be paired with the buff having a duration.

        1) you can ignore it without messing up your rotation. Its a matter of having the player make a choice both on whether he wants to use it and on how he’s gonna use it.
        2) If Frost gets an Unholy you can even use it as a free Death Coil. Remember its schools, not just rune based abilities. Blood empowerment could mean a Blood Boil if many mobs are present or, yes, a free blood strike to refresh desolation or even a strangulate which could give you an edge in pvp.
        With a change like that they could even move Death Strike as a Blood ability and be able to use it for self-healing, since we lack our self-heals from Live and HP is more important in Cataclysm than WotLK.

        The biggest problem in my opinion is that in a world where we are still GCD capped a system like that won’t help at all.

  38. Branith says:

    I hope you understand what my intent is, Anytime you use DC, RS or FS, doesnt matter what spec you are, you have the chance to proc a Festering Strike, a Necrotic Strike or a Death Strike. Again doesnt matter what spec you are you can be a frost DK and decide to spend your RE proc on a necrotic strike for example, or a Blood tank who decides to spend it on a festering strike, basically anytime you use a primeary runic dump you have a chance to do more damage (with FeS) more healing (with DS) or a PvP move (NS). very simple and very elegant in that it gives you the character what option to use your RE proc.

    • frostfright says:

      Yeah your idea was good and I saw no problems with it. I was just pointing out the possible issues with Andeus’ idea.

      I like the idea of being able to specialize what you spend your RE proc on. For PvE DPS, Festering Strike to increase disease duration and deal damage. For tanking, another Death Strike for a quick heal and shield. For PvP, a Necrotic Strike against any sort of healing-capable opponent(s), or even a FeS or DS, depending on what you need. Really versatile and interesting, which I like.

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