Latest Blue – Uh, Ok

On the plus side, at long (long) last, we’ve finally received a DK-centric blue post!

On the down side… well, where to begin…

Mechanics that weren’t working have been changed up.

I assume this is in regards to the rune system and runic power generation changes? After all, those are the only real “mechanic” changes we have received.

The issue here is that the current rune system (and it’s RP produced) work just fine on live, so the claim is somewhat off. Yes, the current system wouldn’t have worked in Cataclysm, given new abilities and procs, but there hasn’t been much to live up to that promise of new abilities (Outbreak, which is far from necessary and in no way interesting) and new procs (Runic Empowerment, the current state of which is a nightmare and has yet to be commented on), so the different is negilible.

Besides, the new rune system has just as many issues as the old, at least when you look at in the overall picture of other beta changes, and thus isn’t some miracle, especially when many problematic aspects of the new rune system (such as rune costs for cooldowns or relative cost for non damage abilities) haven’t been adjusted as they were supposed to.

In fairness, the wording doesn’t state that they think they’ve actually fixed or solved anything, just that they’ve changed it!

Some boring, passive damage talents have been removed.

Very few (although, don’t get me wrong, I can’t help but love Blizzard for the removal of Desolation!).

In contrast, look at all the ones which remain: Improved Icy Touch, Annihilation, Corrupting Strikes, Morbidity, and Necrosis are as present (and as boring and passive) as ever.

Relative to the total number of talents available, we actually have more “boring, passive” increases in the new trees than we do in the Wrath ones, which is quite ironic considering half the intent of shrinking the trees was to do the exact opposite.

Overall we didn’t feel the need to replace talents like say Rime, Dirge or Killing Machine


Oh, my.

First, Dirge has been pretty heavily modified from it’s live state. In fact, it’s so different (at least in terms of usefulness, although admittedly quite similar in terms of actual mechanics) that the new version may as well be a complete replacement of the old.

Secondly, Dirge is nothing like Rime and Killing Machine. The latter two are excellent talents, both in terms of the actual numbers behind them, and in terms of effect on our playstyles. Dirge is not only far behind, mathmatically, it’s even farther behind mechanically – it’s passive, predictable, and quite unexciting. It in no way resembles the proc-based nature of both Rime and KM. Pairing the three together is faulty logic.

It’s possible that Dirge has been redone in an internal beta build into some form making GC’s inclusion of it with Rime and KM more understandable, but if that’s the case, then it’s a direct conflict with the statement of not having needed to replace it!

Third, yes, of course Rime and Killing Machine didn’t need replacement. They’re everything the rest of our talents wish they could be! It’s a bit disingenuous to say that you didn’t need to replace talents “like say” Rime or KM when those are the two best examples there are of talents which didn’t need work. That’s like picking the two best public schools in the country and saying that overall the public school system just doesn’t need much work.

DK trees don’t need as much change just because their newer.

This is quite untrue. Yes, our trees are newer, and on live are better done then the rest. But, when looked at through the lens of the new talent tree design philosophy, our trees are just as poor off as any others, regardless of age.

Now, don’t get me wrong: a blue post is welcome! I would rather get official feedback, no matter how misguided, incomplete, or seemingly incorrect it may be, than the alternative of nothing. It’s certainly beneficial to know what the developers are thinking during beta, especially if their thinking appears to be heavily contradictory to tester sentiment and their own stated design philosophies. So for that, I say thanks. Genuinely: thanks.

However, one can’t help but be a bit disheartened by the sentiments reflected in that post. Our trees on live may be closer to the Cataclysm philosophy than other classes, due to how relatively new they are, but on beta, that’s most certainly not the case; in the initial pass every class received (as they had to, due to the size reduction), we quite clearly ended up behind, in comparison, and the fact that our trees were previously more fresh was rendered utterly irrelevant. We have as many – more, as proportional to the total number of available talents – bland, passive talents as ever, those of the exact nature Blizzard said they were looked to reduce/eliminate. The new rune system has the potential to be better than the old, but in its current state has even more issues. Cherry-picking our best talents as examples to say we didn’t need much work is just plain sneaky!

But, whatever. As I’ve said before, many times; all it takes is one patch to flip things around, and we still have plenty of time for that one patch. What GC says could be based on trees we still aren’t privy to, or who knows. No reason to cry doom and gloom.

Still, not promising!

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89 Responses to Latest Blue – Uh, Ok

  1. kc102 says:

    >I would rather get official feedback, no matter how misguided, incomplete, or seemingly incorrect it may be
    Rofl, trueness.

  2. Gravity says:

    It’s pretty bad public relations, really.

    • Roth says:

      It really is, considering he continues to ignore legitimate posts that clearly state concerns and instead replies to the ones riddled with QQ. The fact that he cant follow his own rules is annoying.

      • Sag says:

        GC has said that he sometimes doesn’t talk in good threads because at times it makes the threds degenerate and good conversation stops as the thread becomes a sort of trollfest.

        That being said, what is he supposed to say if the thread has good points that the devs are trying to create answers too. 500 “we’re working on it” posts in threads a day aren’t really that great an idea. Though sometimes I think he feeds the trolls too much.

      • Insolence says:

        All we need is a post that says “Hi, thank you for your concerns and precious Feedback, we’ll be revising DKs in a future build, stay tuned.” or something like that, /Threadlock after if he wants idfc. Instead of indirectly saying “Why you QQ? Who say you can QQ? DK done! (Old post) What Feedback? You no give Feedback. FU FU FU.”

      • Andeus says:

        You can’t have FU FU FU, you can only go FU FU BB.

        Sorry.

  3. Rythian says:

    “Neglect is a word that will make us skip the post!”

    Except then he replies to exactly that post, and not anyone of the tons of other well-written posts.

  4. Insolence says:

    I pray GC reads the replies made to that Thread and slaps himself awake, so that I don’t need to level my level 70 Warrior to 85 and have to explain why the fuck he has 0 WotLK Raiding Achivements and “bla bla bla on DK bla bla bla”…..

  5. Aram says:

    I generally agree with him 90% of the time when he posts but one of the things that this Dr. Street post proves is that they haven’t spent one second reading the feedback, data, etc that has been produced so far. There is so much data and feedback about how the resource changes have proven useless. This has created a bad foundation for three talents trees littered with bad talents. You can’t build a good house without a good foundation. Its like they are totally clueless about the class as it is today on beta.

    My only solace is that I’ve seen this type of stuff out of their “class team” before. The 0/32/39 build was one of them. They went months without acknowledging it and when they did, Dr. Street posted something “We don’t see this build as a problem” when it clearly was.

    • Roth says:

      Yea it seems like his DK info is about 3-4 months old. Im pretty confident that once they get around to actually looking at us, theyll realize just how poorly put together our talents/playstyle are. Blood’s lack of GCDs, Unholy GCD issues and RE…they cant honestly look at those 3 major problems and think “yep, DKs are almost finished.”

  6. Nahela says:

    His post is just so ignorant and hypocritical it’s appalling. It’s like we’re not even playing the same game, and to paraphase another CM, the one I used to play was fun.

  7. Fish says:

    GC’s posts lately just seem very different from those in last beta where he was more interested in getting feedbacks. This time, he just seems to go all forum moderator on us — “if you say this, developers won’t like it; if you say that, this will happen; this is deemed as QQ by us bleh bleh bleh”.

    Even after not having responded to legitimate concerns for so long, the very first sentence in the very first post he made in months about DK was emphasizing how developers usually react to certain words instead of addressing real concerns. And, when he did, whatever he brought up was misguided and incomplete or even incorrect info. Much like mushed potato–filling but has no redeeming value–both what he said and our talent trees.

  8. Dude1 says:

    It’s clear that Blizzard feels dks are fine how they are since we haven’t had any real replies for two months. Yes on live Dk trees are newer than the rest and possibly alittle better. Going into Cata let’s possible say the worst?

    Them saying that we didn’t need much change and we haven’t seen change in so long just proves that we aren’t going to get any changes. It’s going to be bad to be a DK come cata.

  9. Coldfire989 says:

    Man you can really tell GC has gotten jaded already from his job. His post are not at all what they used to be or what they should be.

  10. Skaarrj says:

    Eh. Lets not turn this into a I-Hate-GC thing here. Or whatever negativity there is.

    DK’s don’t look fun to play right now by skimming the talent tree’s. That’s all I’ll say to that. Too much passive/boring stuff.

    • Aram says:

      This isn’t a “I hate GC” thing. We are questioning if they, Blizzard, are playing the same game as we are. The fact is that is their statements and reality aren’t matching up. This is the part that scares most players about the class. In fact, I think a lot of DKs are thinking about switching to another class when the dust settles and this thing is finally released.

      At some point, they will have to wake up to the fact that we are still GCD locked, have bad mechanics and bad talents.

      This is beta where we should speak up to get it fixed now instead of a year from now in 4.1.

      • Fish says:

        This is going to sound like threatening or qqing, but if DK is released as is, I won’t be raiding on my DK.

      • poiso says:

        Fish, this isn’t really a sentiment that’s a rare one these days. We had a “what will you be playing in cataclysm” thread in our guild to start prepping raid roster last week (we’re a fairly decent guild on a top end server in EU), and ALL of our DKs have stated that they’re either changing class already, or will change if class stays as it is on beta.

        (Not so) ironically, no one is rerolling to play DK either 🙂

      • Fish says:

        That is a great idea. I def should start a thread like that on our forum just to see what people’s views are for Cataclysm!

  11. Jonneh says:

    I don’t see how this can be true. Please guys, let it be posted properly and without QQ or dev turn offs;

    Empty GCDs, we don’t have enough. They said all classes should have them, and we don’t/won’t.

    Unholy DW – It’ll work out better, I know numbers aren’t there yet but its also design problems that are leading us there.. not just numbers.

    ‘Boring’ passives still there – We know what they are, lets make a noise. I mean Butchery? Seriously?

    Blood extra damage – Taking extra damage because you heal yourself as part of your rotation just isn’t a good design. I’m sorry but extra damage taken is a constant penalty, where as healing yourself a few times every rune rotation is a slight perk. Its not like you can hold off your DSs for when they’re needed to heal you (threat?). Maybe the mastery will make up for this, but its hard to say. I doubt it. Taking more damage than any other tank is a massive disadvantage. Just think about it. A tank’s job is to keep agro, take as little damage as possible. Why use a DK if they’re inferior at one of the fundamental purposes of the role?

    We need feedback on specific issues, and we need to know if they’re even looking at the same page as us. Are they thinking internal when they say we’re looking ok?

    I can’t believe a Q&A request phrased properly will be ignored. Especially when all we’ve been getting lately is just so confusing.

    • Insolence says:

      A Q&A Request by who? Blizz can’t just go around granting Classes Q&As when we feel ignored, as true as our feelings may be. Maybe if someone knows a Blizzard Employee could get a request forwarded to Ghostcrawler for a Twitter Dev Chat but I think that’s about as far as they’ll go, and with Dev Chat they choose what to answer.

      Other Classes will want a Q&A if DKs get one and doing 10 separate Q&As takes time and effort I doubt they want to pour into.

      • Consider says:

        What I interpreted him to mean is a post similar to the feral druid one currently up in Damage Dealing which got some lovely (seriously) feedback from GC and generated some good discussion in general. I’ll type one up right now (what could it hurt, and besides, I’m currently having trouble deciding what race+class to do next in beta!). Likely nothing will come of it, but hey, who knows.

      • Insolence says:

        😮 Didnt know about that. Well then, dont forget to Tweet it to us :p

      • Consider says:

        http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26560850352&postId=265582614578&sid=1#0

        Yeah, see this is why I don’t like doing posts like this. I’m just not good at being concise! I could easily have added twice as many questions, and written whole essays on half the issues!

        But, hey, your (or Jonneh’s?) wish is my command! Why not.

      • Insolence says:

        *Wishes Consider worked for Blizzard as a Class Designer*

        Did it work? 😀

      • Consider says:

        Haha. Don’t I wish?

      • Insolence says:

        Well worth trying I guess 😄

        P.S. Yay, no more ugly squares for me!

      • frostfright says:

        It would be really nice if you could post such a Q&A, Consider. You’re basically the figurehead of the DK community, and if Ghostcrawler will respond to any sort of question thread, it would be one made by you.

        😦 Is it sad that I’m so excited by the thought of GC answering questions like he did for some of the other classes? It’s just such a tantalizing thought.

      • frostfright says:

        Ah. Oops. I didn’t even notice you had already made one.

        THE WAITING GAME BEGINS.

        …AGAIN!

        Which is to say, we continue to wait! But this is a checkpoint in that waiting. Yes.

      • Jhadur says:

        This is one of those times when I wish Blizz would drop its policy of not having a class dedicated devs and CM’s. It sure seems like they get a bit overwhelmed with the amount of stuff they have to deal with working on all of them.

      • Ashe says:

        Thanks for making the post; it is well done. It certainly can’t hurt to have it, but I’m doubtful of a response from GC. Hopefully it doesn’t get sidetracked with some idiot’s worthless/QQ post which GC will then choose and reply solely to 🙂 Can’t wait for this next patch….

      • Jonneh says:

        Thanks Consider.

        I guess all we can do now is wait and hope. If this gets ignored then all we can do is wait and hope. The difference is, not being answered will be far more irritating and demorralising to us as a community.

        But hey, we’ve done our job and raised the concerns in a constructive and concise way. Now its just up to the devs to see if they agree, and would like to tell us about it or visa versa.

      • Jonneh says:

        The most frustrating part here as a Brit is that I can’t add my voice to this anywhere where devs might see it. :/

      • Alrenous says:

        “In short, we don’t want Pestilence to be an AE at all. We want Blood Boil and Howling Blast and similar spells to be your primary source of AE damage. I’m not saying we’ll change Pestilence at this stage because it would be pretty tricky to implement a design that let it spread diseases that did no damage (or something equally goofy). I’m just saying that our intent is not for Pestilence to be a huge chunk of your damage. It’s ultimately a utility ability. ”

        Change blood boil’s flavour to be like howling blast – a main target and subsequent nearby targets. Or a bit like chain lightning. Then, base all the damage on teh diseases of the primary target.

        Change Ebon PLague to spread itself for DnD adn raid utiliity.

        Bam, no more need for pestilence at all. I think? Have I missed something?

  12. Concerned says:

    What it says to me is that basically they dont have an interest in making anymore interesting or helpful changes to the DK class. Based on the semantics GC used I can deduce its because we are new class and by that reasoning we should just be happy with what we have. That’s just how I interpret the posts from GC. All I can say to that is , ” Way to brush us off GC”.

  13. Leviatharan says:

    Well, this is certainly one of those things where either one of three events can occur in response:
    A. GC and/or a few of the other devs read up on threads and posts about DKs and figure out there is, in fact, something very wrong, creating an “I TOLD you so!” moment for us.
    B. The devs already knew all this was happening, and come out with a “Gotcha!” patch in a couple weeks that will relieve at least a small handful of our fears.
    C. Cataclysm comes out, thousands of DKs reach level 85, and THEN Blizz says “Oh wait, that’s not supposed to happen…” and we get an “I told you so!” moment a lil’ later than we thought as a 4.0.5 is created almost specifically for us.

  14. Waylandyr says:

    We should get a shaman in the thread threatening with a bus. Just saying.

  15. Anaroth says:

    Okay I’ve posted a few more things to bump the thread.

    Any chance you could move what you think are relevant addition issues into the first post Consider?

    • Nahela says:

      He’s likely already out of post space. We made a bigger, more in-depth (yet still concise) collective feedback thread on the beta boards but never got a response to it. I believe his intent is just clearing up some bullet points and anything else that gets answered beyond that is a bonus.

  16. Andeus says:

    Comments on the questions Consider posted:

    #5: Since there is no mechanic alteration involvement in what you say about Rune Strike, doesn’t that make it fall under the category of number pass? We know that the numbers are not there yet and that the number pass will come on the next phase of beta, so doesn’t that pretty much answer this?

    #6 & #7: Well we’ve all talked this one to death over the past month and we all know how these should go away but when I read the issue, this dawned on me:
    Annihilation, doesn’t that actually change the mechanic of Obliterate and makes it an ability you use all the time in Frost?
    Let me go to the point, we have the baseline class, a class without talents with the standard damage numbers on all abilities, so shouldn’t each tree have 2-3 damage increasing talents that elevate those abilities above the standard use and makes them the Tree’s iconic abilities that they are?
    For example: Frost get strong Obliterates which now they’ll use say above Death Strike, Morbidity makes Death Coils an Unholy button etc. Maybe they should increase Morbidity to double what it is now or maybe have it also reduce the GCD of your DC by 0.5sec along with moving it deeper in Unholy, but you get the point.

    They elevate baseline abilities to strong talent tree specific attacks. Like giving you different buttons to press for each spec. Am I wrong to think of it like that? Could it be then that the main problem is that their damage boosts are just under-budget?
    Funny thing: Even under the above assumption which tries to justify the existence of Annihilation, Morbidity, Corrupting Strikes etc., Virulence is still CRAP. But look at Resilient Infection, it relies on Virulence so lets assume that Virulence is a strict PVP talent, then our problem is that we only have Virulence and Epidemic to move down our tree. So doesn’t Epidemic make Virulence look worse? Could it be that Epidemic is the underlying issue here?

    #8: Icy Reach. Now I’m not an avid PVP-er so I might need the help from somebody who is on this one but this is a PVP talent. I believe that most of us here are PVE players (I don’t know you peeps, so I apologise if I’m wrong) so can someone who is into PVP come out and see how useful that is in that evironment? Cause if it is then it justifies both it’s spot that high in the tree and it’s existence. Giving extra range on a primarily melee class is no small feat in PVP. Maybe it adds synergy with IIT, making IT a strong long range nuke when the target tries to move away.

    And that’s what I had in mind. Thoughts?

    • Sag says:

      I’ve pvped for a while, but only recently started out in arenas. It’s tough to say because icy reach is being changed to a straight 60% snare in Cat. That means it is only 10% better than chillblains, which is not picked up in pvp because CoI overrides it (Chillblains). That being said it seems blood and UH pvp DKs would grab icy reach at least because having a ranged snare is important for FCs in BGs. DG, at best has a 15 second CD and with most classes having abilities to get away more frequently than that makes it kind of rough, and makes snares necessary, esp at range.

      My thoughts are that if a hunter, arcane mage, warlock, Spriest and shaman can appy a snare or a root from 30 yds away would it be game breaking if I could apply my snare from the same distance baseline? I don’t really think so, esp since most of those classes can instantly remove my snare with blink, dispell and a purge.

  17. Branith says:

    Just noticed your latest twitter post, please also post that on the cata forums as well, we need some feedback, and im damn tired of seeing every 2nd blue response in reply to a paladin problem.

  18. Karesh says:

    Constructive blue feedback while nice is something I cannot see coming. They have implemented the changes they said they would with us and have left it at that. While the changes have left many beta testers bewildered and the DK class what many have said incomplete.
    I have been enjoying this blog greatly but the why don’t we get blue posts comments are getting old. Blizzard will do with each class as they see fit we can only hope that the great feedback the DK beta testers have been posting has actually been seen by the Devs only time will tell. GC’s post was a waste of time in my opinion.

    • poiso says:

      I think you’re misunderstanding the concern. In all the honesty, most of us wouldn’t care much if there were no blue posts on our class at all, provided the class was functional, useful and capable in raiding and PvP scenarios.

      As it stands now, it’s none of the above on beta, hence people want feedback on “what is going to be done about it”, and when feedback is among the lines of “nothing is wrong with it, we’re pretty much done”, you get the crystorm varying from “WTF?” to “give me more blues” and everything in between.

      Hell, the class is average in raiding on live, and completely dysfunctional in PvP on live even now, remains the only class in the game where you generally lose dps when swapping to legendary due to unholy being worse dps spec then frost by a rather nasty margin, and having 2 useless and one borderline dysfunctional pvp spec. None of the above problems have been addressed for several patches now, while seeing things like “please make feral dps better” actually addressed (for a class who already has essentially 3 excellent specs already.

      It’s this contrast of attention coupled with complete lack of any coherence in DK’s class development that’s causing the annoyance. Solve that, and no one worth noting will care about amount of blue posts on class’ topics.

      • Insolence says:

        I beat a PvP Geared DK 1vs1 in my Tank Gear last night, I’m average 264 Geared, he had full PvP. Maybe he was a noob but lol if Tank Gear + Spec > PvP Gear + Spec thats /Facepalm.

      • Scuzoid says:

        Replying to Insolence. I personally won’t be surprised of 31/0/20 outperforms frost and unholy at 85. I’m certain it will in rated BG’s, but I’m also fairly sure it’ll see as much, if not more, 3v3 effectiveness as current arms vs prot.

      • Aram says:

        @Scuzoid Thats not a valid build. You only have 41 talent points at level 85.

      • Scuzoid says:

        Meant 31/0/10 for resilient infection and unholy command.

      • poiso says:

        It’s worth noting that in general, tank classes are designed around countering melee classes – they have to be as bosses are generally nothing but a hard hitting melee enemy with a few skills.

        As a side effect, that makes most tanks shred most melee in 1v1 (note the word most before arguing that spec x can win vs tank y).

        The PvP problem we’re talking about are arena (and in more limited extent BG). Biggest problem with rated BGs though is that ranged classes will be far more powerful there by default, because as soon as premade with decent people is put together, melee will be getting focused and one shotted by multiple ranged classes not unlike spell cleave currently works in arena. Melee always has to expose itself to engage the enemy, often outranging healer if target moves back, while ranged facing the melee has free reign to kite while in healer’s range as well as just blowing the melee up.
        I would’t be surprised to see a LOT of 1-2 prot warriors for reflect and shutdown, 6-7 ranged dps and 2-3 healers in a 10 man BG comp. Melee will be out by default due to how utterly useless melee will be when facing the comp mentioned above.

      • Fish says:

        I think the problem with the lack of blue posts on DK is that we as beta testers do not know what or how to give feedbacks. With the current implementations, I am unsure if DK is done or if there are more changes in their internal build; thus, I have no idea what feedback to give or even what to test. Even worse is while I want to give feedback, I don’t know if I should waste time if feedback is going to go unnoticed.

      • Sag says:

        @Insolance,

        What a lot of people don’t understand about the pvp unholy build is that standing toe-to-toe with melee is killer for that spec. You sure CoI and kite and melee. For warriors try to stay out to charge range and out of Melee range. Let your ghoul do the actual damage. If he get to charge his PS and run away, hopefully the hamstring misses. The strength in unholy is absorbing magic damage, which includes both hunter and rogue poisons, that is what makes it actually work. in my 2v2 team with a holy pally the only matches that are real pains are healer+dps because I cannot dps down a healer and neither can a holy pally (proof, this weekend my partner and I went for over 30 min against a resto druid arms warrior comp… it was painful). Generally dual caster teams die pretty quickly, even with my poor pve gear.

        Also another note, since I can’t see your spec, if you’re blood and he went toe to toe that is just stupid. Blood can be kited fairly easily (as most DKs can be actually) and the self heals make the spec a bitch to dual, basically CoI->DC until you die.

        @poiso,

        The biggest deal for me with tanking classes is the amount of stuns and silences that they have. Think about a prot warrior, concussive blow, shockwave, pummel, shield bash (oh and who could forget the lovely spell reflect). A prot pally 20 second stun, 30 second shield, and possibly random stuns from justice if they use it. Ferals aren’t usually as much of an issue accept for the higher AC makes my SS hit for even shittier amount, and usually I get them to about half life before they pop bear form, which then makes it so that they take forever to kill. Other DKs usually aren’t a huge deal because they get at most a stun every minute and a silence every minute, it’s pretty hard to time a brain freeze to counter anything I “cast”

        Honestly prot pallies and warriors are more difficult for me than Rets or arms/fury, to me that is kind of messed up. Maybe that is just me though. I also figure that blood could be beastly in pvp with the proper talents, the biggest issue is disease protection because life without lichborne & icy reach would kind of suck.

  19. Andeus says:

    Just wait.

    First they have to finish up all the UI elements. You’ve seen them on mmo-champion and chances are there are more coming. We are one of few classes that rely too much on them to test anything properly. Until that time comes let them work on other classes as much as they can, it will work in our favor since then they could focus more time on us.

    • Very optimistic. It just isn’t the way these betas work. Plus, GC has already stated that the main class changes were done, everything now was numbers tuning. If you want to wait until the very end to start panicking, you’ll find yourself like hunters and rogues in Vanilla’s beta, rogues in TBC, rogues and hunters in WOTLK.

      The earlier they start on your class, the more obsessed with it they get. The later they wait, the more they brush aside any complaints as exaggeration and changes become harder for them to justify. If they start early, they become interested in getting your class just right because subconsciously they know they have a long time to work on it. If you’re the last class, you’re a burden in a tight schedule that they must meet, so they’re more likely to ignore obvious problems. I like to think of this as the Survival Tree problem.

      WOTLK beta was about to end and Survival was not finished (and wow isn’t it funny its this tree that’s bugging them again in this beta?). They released the game regardless, remarking that they’d fix it in subsequent patches. Those patches, mind you, took months to come.

      So you can wait patiently until the day of release to realize that they aren’t changing anything or you can start complaining en masse. Because nothing short of a loud, large majority of people pitching a fit is going to penetrate the Greg Street Bubble of Obstinance. He’s stated they’re done with major changes, but the DK’s resource system was changed in major ways and not made to work with those changes. Major changes are required still and he’s not offered a single response to a DK concern in months that was anything except, “Stop QQ’ing,” “Offer what’s missing,” or “DK’s are fine, l2p.”

      So the time for patience is over. He is making it clear nothing short of a surge in beta posters posting over and over to get his attention will do. Unfortunately, I watch the Cata forums and it just doesn’t seem like Cata beta testers who play DK’s are posting in the beta forums enough to get his attention. It’s a shame.

      I let my WoW subscription end because I lacked anything to do, having done all the raiding I wanted, never having been into PVP support roles, and not interested in leveling a toon through horrible old world when the old world will be made new with Cata anyway. With the way they’re treating dk’s as a whole (and its the lack of respect, the unwillingness to respond to posts that are actually detailing dk problems), I’m struggling to know why I even have a preorder for Cata.

      This is not a, “I’m quitting cuz u neglectd uz” post. Its a, “I just don’t get it,” post. I’d say ol’ GC needs a vacation, but his reactions to DK’s are in stark contrast to his responses to just about every other class and their concerns.

      Imo, his relative silence to dk concern posts and his occasional post to respond to QQ/neglect posts suggests to me he knows he’s going to leave dk’s to rot. So he wants to keep from addressing real concerns head on and cause a fullscale slam of the boards when all dk’s realize it. This is why he addresses real and specific concerns, one by one, for most other classes, but with dk’s he’s very general and even evasive. I was patient, but now, months later, with only fine tuning to do, it is clear he’s been ducking the fanbase hoping we’d wait until its too late to get anything done. The logic is that as long as he doesn’t address dk concerns beyond the vague evasive, the dk community won’t have anything concrete to discuss, dispute, suggest, or add.

      For months now, the dk’s have been waiting for some conversation of what the dk trees were supposed to be like so that people could then offer feedback and for months nothing has come. At this point, its obvious that every other class, every other tree, has had its intentions for Cata already well discussed. Thus, DK’s not being talked about is everything they’re going to say. He as good as said that already. “If you see something missing, say so. I can’t go to the dev’s and say, ‘Something’s missing’ unless you tell us.” Months of telling them and we get, “Nothing’s changing, the tree was great as it was, no surprise.” Do the math.

      Again, its that lack of respect for a class that was a large part of the sell of WOTLK that stinks. But if people don’t start complaining loudly and prominently about it despite the fact they have no blue posts to comment on, nothing will change.

      So again, I don’t even know why I have a Cata preorder. I’m hoping things change because if they don’t, I’m seriously questioning why I’d invest my time or energy in a game where your class can be left incomplete after the last year of they’re assuring us they’d finally learned better than to do that. As a former hunter, I’ve had my fill of that multiple times already.

      • Andeus says:

        Optimistic? It’s his job and it is Blizzard. Anyone here thinking that they are gonna abandon a whole class or anything is ignorant and just wants to vent / whine. No offense, honestly.

        It’s not that I’m optimistic, it’s that that’s how it is. Seriously think about it. Lets say they make some changes, what’s gonna happen? Nothing. Runes system will still be bugged, RE bugs here and there etc. etc. Bugs are not Class designer’s job.

        As for the rest, I think Consider himself has written an article hereon how everything can work if they tweak some numbers. GC never said that they won’t tweak numbers, they don’t do it right now for any class. Right now they are making up mechanics and, frankly, that’s probably it for us.

        Yes the %, coefficients and what not will change, some talents will change positions but new mechanics? I highly doubt it. The only reason would be if the final numbers don’t add up and something is missing, but even that doesn’t seem that likely.

  20. Lichloathe says:

    Every once in a while, Ghostcrawler tells us:
    “If you’re going to complain about where we post and what we post about, my superiors might decide that it’s not worth my time to post anymore and it’ll just stop altogether.”

    And then he makes posts like this and it almost makes me wish he would just do that already. I think I would much rather read nothing from the Dev team than to read something like “We don’t feel a need to replace talents like Dirge, Rime or Killing Machine”. I am so offended by how completely off the mark this statement is that I don’t even know how to respond to it constructively.

    It makes me just want to call him an asshole and point out that nobody wants Dirge, Rime or Killing Machine to be replaced – we want our class to work. We shouldn’t even be at a point where we critique individual talents because the issues with our baseline mechanics are so potent that they have an overriding authority on anything else. I haven’t even trained RE because there are so many problems with it. The class, at it’s base, does not even work correctly.

    I hate to be the kind of guy that cries about X class getting more blue than mine, but then again, I never thought I’d actually see a situation where 3 months go by and tons of legitimate concerns feel downright ignored. I like to think of myself as fairly reasonable but it’s hard even for me to keep a positive attitude when that much time goes by and our changes are random things that appear to serve no purpose (Blood Strike nerf) or are just plain asinine (Dirge ability change).

    Sigh. =/

    • Consider says:

      Of course his post was going to derail the thread. Not quite sure what he expected when making it!

      • Insolence says:

        Least it shows he actually read your Thread. Now I wonder, if you and Grav and Satorri and whoever else post the same Feedback as in the Beta Forums, will anything happen or will it just be more time wasting since so far all the Feedback we have given seems to have been totally ignored.

        Lol @ Tweet btw 😀

      • Anaroth says:

        All his post shows is he read the thread with his orginal post.

        That doesn’t mean he’s yet prepared to address the points raised in any of our actual decent feedback
        threads.

      • Leodar says:

        GC’s comment was not in response to the most recent thread. It was about a non-DK thread that turned into “DK’s are neglected”

        His comments don’t depress or anger me nearly as much as the people in that new thread. Only 2 pages and already people have stated that they LIKE the DK talent trees for Blood and Frost like 3 or 4 times, putting them on par with other classes. We have no chance competing with incompetence. This is exactly the kind of crap I was worried about with DK beta, too many people who have no effing idea what they are talking about.

      • Insolence says:

        And unfortunately GC is just gonna use those to support his theory of “DKs are done, stfu with your QQ.”

      • Gravity says:

        GC is smarter than the general populace. He’ll mentally filter-out the retards.

      • Aram says:

        As bad as this might sound, this is why they shouldn’t be posting. 9 out of 10 blue posts end up derailing a thread.

    • Ashe says:

      I think some DK must have spent hours ganking one of GC’s lowbie alts and now he’s sore about it.

  21. Nikolos says:

    It’s becoming quite obvious that DKs are, in Blizzard’s mind, “done”. Our only feedback has been a slightly more polite form of “STFU”, and all our discussion threads are ignored. It’s almost as if they want people to stop playing the class.

    • Insolence says:

      Personally would not be surprised if this was just an attempt to lessen the DK Population. Many DKs I hear of on live are already planning to reroll if DKs do not change from their current form in Beta.

      • Aram says:

        I’ll actually admit that I’m one of the people thinking about switching.

        I look at the class I used to play and say to myself, “Wow, they have a lot of really cool new stuff coming in Cata and they will be fun for sure.” Then I look at this class and I ask myself nothing but questions about what Blizzard has or hasn’t done.

      • Gravity says:

        LOL at conspiracy theory 🙂
        I reckon, all the deathtards are going to reroll worgen or goblin for FOTM.

      • Well, DK’s came out of WOTLK beta insanely strong in a lot of ways. Perhaps this is simply their way of guaranteeing that it does not happen twice.

      • Futhark says:

        I thought the same thing, and I would welcome it TBH.

        I am not in beta, so I have not experienced the new rune cooldowns or how RE works, so take my following statements with some understood naivety. However, I’m still of the opinion that the construction of the talent trees for 2Hd Frost looks pretty bad-ass. Even after reading Consider’s earlier post on the subject, I look forward to seeing how Frost DPS shakes out.

      • Sag says:

        @HisDivineOrder,

        I thought this as well, but most of the things that made us OP are removed, like PS removing hots, that I don’t think that could happen unless the numbers for DKs are insane out of the gate. That being said who knows how well we’ll actually scale with a stat until the 2nd or 3rd patch.

  22. Andeus says:

    Wow, someone in that thread that likes our trees mentioned on how Hungering Cold needs to freeze bosses to be worth it.

    I understand that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion but thats…wow.

  23. Skaarrj says:

    saw Considers most recent post in the Damage Dealing forums. Brining up Questions and Concerns or whatnot. I hope your efforts pay off.

    Can’t really say more without turning this into a whine.

  24. frostfright says:

    “The feedback is useful to a degree. The problem is it’s really common to see something like “I’m disappointed with my tree. All the other class got a lot of amazing toys and new talents that I really think should be in my tree. All the other classes are incredibly excited about Cataclysm, while the people who play my class are all drunk in the gutter with despair. My tree has changed the least of all the trees and will clearly be terrible in Cataclysm.” That kind of thing tends to be a cross between the grass is greener mentality and just campaigning for buffs. If you think you can be really objective about it, then go ahead, but my concern was that we’d get a lot of “My tree is the worst” feedback, which isn’t useful when everyone says that about their tree. Ultimately, it’s easier for us to make changes when we know what excites you rather than knowing that you want to be buffed (because we can pretty much assume the latter). ” -Ghostcrawler

    I cant help but feel like this is directed towards us. Hehe.

    The funny part is that we’re really not saying any of that. Our problems are MOSTLY core mechanics.

  25. Anaroth says:

    Browsing that ret thread he at leasts states we shouldn’t be GCD capped in Cataclysm. Although somehow he responds to a statement that DKs are feeling GCD capped in alpha and beta, by mentioning that we’re often gcd capped on live (which isn’t necessarily true all that often).

  26. Skaarrj says:

    Well, sorry i misunderstood some of you thinking you were just bashing GC because of the understandable frustration.

    I do feel really let down by my talent tree’s for the DK. Especially Frost. It’s why I decided to play my Fury Warrior over my DK thus far. And if DK changes aren’t good enough due to bad talents and mechanics, i’ll play my Fury Warrior.

    And I’m a open minded perosn when it comes to talents and such.

  27. Hinenuitepo says:

    Given a gear reset at level 82-83, it will be a small thing to switch to another class if it ends up being as bad on live as it’s feared.
    While I agree fully with the frustrations and concerns of the current beta cycle (build comes out, no fix for obvious problems, beta comments ensue, get no/no helpful response… wait for next build), I’m still willing to wait and see. Again, I share the concerns, and if there are no changes, then I’ll either level an alt first while waiting for changes, or switch mains.
    Still, the vitriol about how stupid devs must be is misguided. Blizzard has built a game that many millions play. They do the difficult job of balancing so many classes and specs. They don’t always get it right, but in time the iterations get there. I’m afraid DKs are looking like they’ll be late to the party this time around, but at least for me, that doesn’t mean I’ll quit playing the game or give up on DKs entirely.

  28. Olanai says:

    Why do you consider Annihilation to be a “boring” talent? Yes, it’s passive, but it’s one of the two key talents that makes Frost prefer Obliterate over Death Strike. Since it changes how the spec plays, which is one criterion for the “good talent” category, it’s not one they’re likely to change. (IIT, on the other hand, is not likely to change anything unless the buff it provides is absurd.)

    • Sag says:

      That actually reminds me of a post where GC talks about why slam is buffed passively in Arms (aside from the casting time removal), to make Arms want to use slam, which causes a change in play style. Blizz considers that a good talent, going from that post. The difference is that given that slam only does damage and OB can proc Rime, the proc alone would make a frost DK want to hit OB over DS. A talent that only buffs damage could be wrapped in elsewhere (like into Rime) and a more interesting talent be placed in annihilation’s place.

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