Dark Simulacrum – Destined For…

Greatness or ignominy?

That, as they say, is the question. No matter how it may seem at the present, it’s likely to end up in the middle, if anything, as it should be.

As it currently stands, you can copy almost anything which has a mana-cost. There are a few exceptions (Water Elemental and Felguard will instantly die, for instance, as they likely check themselves against your talents), but not many. Essentially all damage and healing spells can be mimicked, as has been expected all along (although in some cases they’ll be instant as opposed to having a cast time, and won’t actually consume the Dark Simulacrum debuff, allowing overpowered scenarios like spamming an instant cast Divine Light for 20 seconds straight! Obviously a bug, and likely a simple one for them to iron out). Crowd-control,  snares, and like are usable as well. We can steal demon summons, but such use is slated for removal (due to all of the understandable technical complications).

Nothing surprising so far, right?

But then you get to self-buffs: Shadowform, Windfury Weapon, Molten Armor, Dark Intent, Seals, and so forth. All of them can be copied, and for their full-duration at that.

And that’s where the problem lies.

You see,  according to this post, Ghostcrawler doesn’t have a problem with it copying Shadowform (and, likely, the other similar spells), but then states the obvious – that such abilities will have to have a Dark Simulacrum imposed limited duration, presumably similar to how buffs from Spell Steal are automatically capped at two minutes.

The big question of course, is what sort of time cap are we looking at? Because no matter which way you go, you’re looking for trouble.

  • Too high (which, I would say, is probably anything over a minute)? Then raiding is going to be an utter joy. Imagine a World of Logs ranking where all of the top Death Knights are those who duel their raid’s Shadow Priest before the fight for the free +15% shadow damage, or their friendly Enhancement Shaman for Windfury (which I haven’t mathed out, but I believe would be on par, if not superior to, Shadowform). Hearthing out, dueling, and being summoned back is a process which only takes a minute or two; easily short enough to justify the huge gains we would see from these buffs even if we only ended up having them for a fifth of the encounter. If there was a truly tight enrage, you can bet us doing this would be mandatory. Even if dps wasn’t the central issue on a fight, there are numerous survivability buffs – Earth Shield, Shadowform (again!), Mage Armor, and so on – which could dramatically reduce the amount of healing we require and tremendously increase the amount of stupidity we can get away with (which is already a lot, considering Anti-Magic Shell!).
      • The reason why you don’t see this as an issue with Spell Steal, despite having a two minute cap (which I would argue is far too long for DSim), is because there just aren’t as many dramatic magic buffs a Mage can steal. Most of these abilities which would be so incredible for us our melee-specific (such as Seals/Windfury), non-magic (Shadowform), or otherwise of limited use to their class (Dark Intent). What’s the strongest spell they can nab from a friendly player; Fel Armor probably? Nothing compared to what we can do.
  • Too low (which, I would say, is probably anything under thirty seconds)? Then the fact that it can copy buffs is rendered near meaningless. Most of these buffs we wouldn’t be able to copy in normal circumstances; you’re not likely to have a Paladin refreshing Seal of Truth mid-combat, or a Priest rebuffing Vampiric Embrace (which, by the way, I would absolutely love to have access to). You’re much more likely to go up against a Mage blowing Mirror Image  or a Shaman summoning Spirit Wolves, or other such cooldown usage which, if buffs are limited to thirty seconds or less, are likely superior damage (both immediately and over time) anyways. Sure, there will be the occasional super-buff we’ll be able to ninja from an NPC and being able to copy Heroism if you’re team is without a Shaman will be invaluable, 30 second cap regardless, but generally speaking, we just won’t care. The spell will lose a lot of its luster.

The astute among you will notice that there is a gap between my definitions of “too long” and “too short”, and yes, I would say that – 30 seconds to a minute – is probably the sweet spot in terms of “too potent, will be obnoxious before demanding encounters or competitive battlegrounds” and “too weak, the ability to copy these cool buffs just won’t compare to what else the spell can do in realistic circumstances”.

However, there is another solution which, if it’s doable in terms of coding, I would strongly push for: Buffs cast via Dark Simulacrum fade when you leave combat. A much smoother, more intuitive, less arbitrary cure than some form of limited duration based on time.

Simple, and solves all of the PvE issues. As for PvP? It would take care of anything ridiculous in Battleground, and as for arenas; if you catch a Shaman rebuffing their weapons mid-combat, or are quick enough to DSim a Shadow Priest shifting back after having to heal, then I’ld argue that they deserve for you to get the buff!

Aside from the buff issue (and the fact that it’s currently on GCD, which isn’t a huge deal for PvE, but seems quite limiting for PvP), Dark Simulacrum is shaping up quite nicely, although a lot of its value will still depend on the specific encounter. If a boss does a 50k nuke every minute we can copy, that’s over 800 dps we’ll gain for free. It’s always been the case that each class has some bosses which they perform better on relative to themselves on others, but for us with DSim, it’s going to take that to a whole new level. That’s why, as odd as this may sound, I’m personally hoping that when it comes to bosses, most of the abilities we’ll be able to mimic won’t be damage ones at all, but those of other natures – healing, utility, survivability, and the like.  More “fun” (because, honestly, copying a nuke which hits for a lot is rather dull) and doesn’t interfere with number balancing.

But, hey, time will tell.

Whichever way they go, I’m hoping they try to avoid designing encounters around the use of Dark Simulacrum to be completed. I.e, imagine Kael-thas without the legendary shield, but instead he casts a buff on himself of similar nature which we would then have to copy and throw on the tank to let them survive the Pyroblast. Letting DSim make an encounter easier is fine – that is, after all, what any ability does! – simply don’t make fights designed around DSim being used at a specific time on a specific spell for you to have any chance at success.

Just too gimmicky.

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54 Responses to Dark Simulacrum – Destined For…

  1. kc102 says:

    >”which could dramatically reduce the amount of healing we require and tremendously increase the amount of stupidity we can get away with”

    One of the reasons I play a Death Knight! We have the survivability of a pally!

    • Consider says:

      AMS is easily my favorite Death Knight spell. It’s the one ability above all else whose proper use sets apart an amazing player from an “ok” or “decent” one, and not because it directly deals damage.

      Hopefully Dark Sim ends up in a similar vein.

  2. frostfright says:

    I would actually like to see Dark Simulacrum as a spell that can be cast on friendly players as well as enemies. That would provide a more effective way for us to copy buffs like Windfury Weapon or Shadowform, and eliminate the hassle of dueling them before a fight. It would also allow the devs to better balance the numbers, because they would just assume our uptime for those buffs to be a mid-combat DPS cooldown.

    I think it would give a TON of depth to the spell, and would give us the choice between using Dark Simulacrum for boss abilities, or friendly abilities, which would make the spell useful even on non-caster encounters.

    Wouldn’t it be just spectacular if the best new DK toy… The thing that added flair and created a new draw for the class was Dark Simulacrum? I’m excited just thinking about it, and I’m hoping this is the intent, because Unholy only gained one new PvE rotational ability, and Frost gained none, and I want to see something NEW that we use regularly. That, and the lackluster implementation of Runic Empowerment has me less than pleased.

    Anyway, lots of potential that I hope doesn’t go to waste as a very situational PvE ability, and a useless PvP ability (Copying Ice Lance is fun! …Not…). Here’s to hoping!

  3. Clevinger says:

    How does the spell actually work? Do you cast it on someone during their cast time and then get to use it once as an instant?

    This made me think about which bosses in ICC have stuff worth stealing.

    Lady Deathwhisper (frost bolt/shadow bolt/death n decay)
    Rotface (slime spray)
    Prof Putricide (malleable goo)
    Blood prince council (shadow lance/conjure flame)
    Blood queen (twilight bloodbolt)
    Dreamwalker (frost bolt volley/fireball)
    Sindragosa (frost breath)
    Lich King (shock wave/soul shriek)

    I don’t understand the mechanics of Dark Simulcram well enough to know whether we could steal all of them. All of them are extra dps as long as we have the GCD’s available. None of them are game breaking although a few a pretty good – empowered shadow lance and frost bolt.

    The ability will be at it most potent in progression fights. Stealing a 20K nuke in ICC now is pretty uninteresting when most other abilities hit of 10K minimum. However, it would have been much more helpful on the day I walked into ICC.

    I couldn’t see any great long lasting buffs to grab in ICC. Plague Stream from the scientist guys increases damage dealt by 100% for 30s. I’m not sure how practical it is to steal that as I don’t remember seeing them cast it.

    You are correct about how long buffs can last. If they don’t impose a sensible duration we’ll just be able to stack up a ton of self buffs before a PVE fight and become godlike.

    • Consider says:

      You cast it on someone. It puts an 8 second debuff on them. The first spell they cast during that duration (assuming they cast one at all) which costs mana, you then get a twenty second buff on yourself which allows you to use it.

      As far as NPC spells go, it’s really whether or not Blizzard flips some arbitrary switch, in most cases. If they want it to copy something, they’ll let it work, and if not, they won’t! Time will tell how it’s use will turn out in raids.

  4. Wake says:

    They could probably make the buff fade whenever you change zone, much like some buffs do today.
    Also, doubt they’ll intentionally design encounters around it. Would defeat their whole new philosophy of not forcing any specific raid setups to be used.

    • Jonneh says:

      They already have the tech to stop it happening in duels. Remember when a duel ends all the debuffs on your opponent disappear (to stop any dots on him actually killing him), so it shouldnt be hard to include DSIM in that.

      • Minaka says:

        That is just what I was thinking Jonneh. As long as any buffs copied during duels (or at least the “perma”-copies) fade when the duel ends, that would solve most of the potential problems with player buffs.

      • Consider says:

        Dueling isn’t the sole issue. You could always make a level 10 alt Priest of the opposite faction within short time to steal Inner Fire from, and 60% armor is going to scale perfectly well. Other such examples are abound as well.

  5. Rebellion says:

    If I had to guess I’s say the best PvE use of DSim will probably be among the lines of spellsteal during the lord jaraxxus (sic? the eredar lord, 2nd boss ToC). it will be a nice buff to yourself, but could easily be solved by purging the boss. Its not mandatory, but helpfull. I wouldn’t wonder if they increase the cost of the spell as well to tax it (like the mage that uses shitloads of mana to steal the buff) to make it somewhat balanced.

  6. Aram says:

    Blizzard has a habit of copying player abilities for use as raid boss abilities, so I imagine that this will show up as a raid boss ability one day.

    Also I agree with you that the leaving combat solution is the easiest. It leaves no room for exploiting or requiring us to copy buffs for raid encounters. Some buffs even for a minute will make a huge difference in raids because of the deltas in HPM of the healers in the raid or the personal DPS/TPS of the DK itself.

    But , this isn’t something that Blizzard has done in the past to fix such issues. Look at the buff on Freya trash that mages were stealing so guilds could kill Hodir hard-mode when they were under-geared. Blizzard didn’t do jack about that. So, I think they’ll go with limited duration and we’ll be theorycrafting which buff we need before a raid encounter starts.

    • Aram says:

      Here is my list of abilities that are worth theorycrafting. This is not a complete list, there might be few that I might have over looked. Without doing any math, some are going to be clearly better than others but I included all of them simply because we don’t have much else to analyze right now.

      DPS:

      Windfury Weapon
      Seal of Truth
      Seal of Righteousness
      Shadowform
      Molten Armor
      Fire Elemental Totem
      Infernal
      Doomguard

      Tanking:

      Frost Armor
      Mage Armor
      Demon Armor
      Inner Fire
      Divine Protection
      Pain Suppression
      Guardian Spirit

      • Rebellion says:

        They would never allow you to use DSim like that. They would remove it before we are forced to duel someone before every boss encounter. Like Consider mentioned, we will most likely end up with a duration between 30 secs and 1 minute when it comes to buffs, maybe even less. Given how long it takes for most encounters to stop talking that would make it useless on most of them anyway. And that is the right direction. While it certainly is fun at first, making it mandatory for 30-40 trys per evening is just horrible game design.

      • Aram says:

        I don’t disagree that its bad design. That is why the idea that you lose the spell when you leave combat is the best option.

        Even 1 minute buffs make a huge difference. In a 5 minute fight, 1 minute is 20% of the fight. In a 10 minute fight, its 10% of the fight. There is a reason why Pillar of Frost or other short duration DPS buffs are so powerful even in semi-long raid encounters. Do they lose value as the fight gets longer? Yes but not every encounter is going to be 10+ minutes.

        If there is an opening for more DPS, TPS, Mitigation, etc. especially during progression, you would be dumb not to take advantage of it.

        And finally, they haven’t removed Spell Steal. Mages have been figuring out a way to game it for 2 expansions. This concept is not new.

  7. Skullflower says:

    Hey Consider, I threw together a quick compilation of the most important things we can currently copy with DSim. Have a look, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flmC1bBd0nI.

  8. Grave says:

    I’d argue your solution is a bad one. Battles in Bg’s can be quick and frequent, with short period of OOC time between. Tanking an ability from one fight to use in the next should be a valid option. Don’t devalue this skills legit uses. Also, sometimes when you get cced you can get feared away and drop combat. What if I copied that fear? Too bad?

    A simple solution, which covers all bases for abuse, is to clear the buffs and the spell tank when you zone. Done and done. Duels aren’t allowed in instances. So a zone must happen for the person to get to a boss.

    • Consider says:

      They can always give it a ten second grace period type deal, or what have you, which would easily cover the scenarios you speak of (although, I do believe battles in BGs will be much slower/longer than they are currently).

      Simply clearing on zone is insufficient and will almost assuredly lead to a “Flower Power”-esqe scenario sometime during the expansion.

      • Grave says:

        Not really, they already have the control built in as far as inside the instance goes. The spell must cost mana, thus by making a mob spell cost 0 mana they make it unstealable.

        And in your flower power scenario, the dk would never leave combat : D

  9. Noin says:

    Spellsteal’s applications are limited, as has been said. The last encounter that had such a deliberately exploitable mechanic was Jaraxxus. Using that fight as an example, I can see Blizzard allowing us to throw out a Fel Fireball as a way to increase our DPS, but I highly doubt they’ll want to step into the mad-hatter world of copying party members’ buffs. Balancing our DPS and such would be very, very problematic.

    The spell right now is great. Dark Simulacum has a plethora of potential uses in PVP, and will probably raise the skill-cap of the class in that area by a great margin. Catching a mage with his own blink, stealing a clutch HoF, HoJ, sheep, fear, etc. The possibilities are endless.

    I’m not so sure about the heal-spamming bug, though. It might easily be unintended, but Blizzard also easily might think it’s okay to reward play by allowing you to help out your healers in PVP for 20 seconds with free Divine Lights. It might sound ridiculous from a theoretical perspective, but it sounds to me like something they actually wouldn’t mind, as copying a Divine Light would take some skill. Basically, if things are bad enough that you want to copy a massive spell like Divine Light over a CC spell or something else, it’s likely the enemy healer won’t be using that spell. Spamming it all over wouldn’t be that great unless your healers were really behind on healing and your life or theirs were in great danger. Even then you could be silenced or CC’d to stop it. So catching a healer using it at a clutch moment would be somewhat like copying Shadowform, and to me, that sounds like something they’d want to reward player skill for.

  10. Skaarrj says:

    I disagree, i think that the duration should be long. Why not? It can probably be dispelled. either the debuff itself or the buff you gain from it.

    • Consider says:

      Which might balance an uncapped duration in PvP, but PvE? Unless all bosses start dispelling the entire raid when you enter combat – an unlikely scenario which would have many other distasteful ramifications! – that doesn’t balance the buffs you steal from duels or your own lowbie opposite-faction alts then use in encounters.

      • Skaarrj says:

        Well that’s an easy one. Any buffs outside of the raid get removed upon entering the raid. Don’t allow duels in raiding instances so you can steal buffs. Summoning also gets rid of buffs.

        Besides, rebuffing takes less than 10 seconds of your time, and people don’t constantly leave the raiding instances. Once things get started things’ll be just as they are now.

      • Consider says:

        Much too complicated (“Fades if you enter this or if you do that or if you go there”) for a rather simple issue to fix, and besides, uncapped durations without any sort of combat limitation just aren’t balanced *even in PvP*. The really strong stuff – Shadowform and Windfury Weapon being first among them – aren’t even removable by enemies. There needs to be some sort of limit, and zoning is insufficient.

        Time or combat are the two easiest ways, ultimately. Although I personally prefer the latter, the former would work well enough, specific number pending.

      • Skaarrj says:

        How is that remotely complicated at all? This would affect all buffs. Not just DarkSim. All buffs SHOULD rightly be removed after either zoning into an instance or get summoned to prevent exploitation of stacking buffs. Such as using DarkSim to exploit this. This way you can use the ability to its fullest extent in pvp or pve.

        I don’t see the problem with it. I’m really into pvp and pve and I absolutely hate it when one part of the game interfers with the other. With this ability it doesn’t have to. This solution works perfectly in theory.

        The ONLY issue i can possibly see with this is if DCing from the raid and reconnecting into the raid might somehow get rid of all your buffs. Which would suck. Hard.

      • Aram says:

        Having buffs removed on zoning for raids will cause more headaches than it will solve. The reason the mechanic works for arena is to make sure its even, your team against their team with no outside advantage.

        There is no need to implement such a mechanic for PvE simply because of one ability when you can target said ability with a duration limit or a combat limit or function limit, etc.

        Doing the simple thing is sometimes the easiest thing and in this case, they’ll place some restrictions on Dark Sim.

      • cold says:

        I don’t see why they shouldn’t just go along with canceling buffs upon entering a raidinstance. That Dragonsblight/Nexus/whatever spellsteal buff business went on for a whole expansion which I definitely would call long enough and this change could have easily fixed that.

    • Skaarrj says:

      Sorry Aram, not buying that it would cause more headaches. There’s no reason it will unless you exploit. No one hops in and out of an instance constantly. You get in , you kill everything until it can’t be killed anymore. And then you leave.

      Why would you hop in and out of an instance enough for it to cause you a headache? Answer. If you do, it probably means you’re exploiting.

      • Consider says:

        Someone leaving because they have to respec for a specific encounter or are looking to experiment with something? Switching raid instances (going from RS to ICC, for instance) in the same evening? Leaving to go gem/enchant a new item you just received? Zoning out to use the meeting stone to summon because your ten man doesn’t have a warlock? Zoning out because you forgot something in your bank (consumables, for instance) and you’re not an engineer? Zoning out to exchange a tier token or a number of emblems for some new piece of gear?

        So on and so forth. Yeah, you might not go in and out constantly, but it’s far from an uncommon occurrence, and having buffs stripped from you each time is just an annoyance which doesn’t even solve a lot of the issues with the subject – Dark Simulacrum – in question. You would still be able to rack of numerous powerful, yet undispellable buffs during a battleground. You would still be able to use and abuse the next sort of Flower Power buff which pops up in an instance.

        Just applying a time limit or causing you to automatically lose DSim buffs after ten or whatever seconds of being out of combat would accomplish just as much as you propose… and more. All at the same time as not being an obnoxious hassle for every single person who raids, DK or otherwise.

      • Skaarrj says:

        These are all true. However how common are they really that someone would groan about losing their buffs? Especially when buffing is quick and easy. I just can’t see anyone (and i have never seen anyone currently complain) about the time it takes to buff in general.

        And it’s not just about stopping DarkSim, it’s about stopping future exploits with these kinds of spells as well.

        Hopefully i haven’t come off as rude though. Not my intention. I just get into it.

      • Consider says:

        What exploits have there been? The closest you can get which zoning would prevent is soulstoning via alts (something you can no longer do anyways). World buffs hardly exist any more, and there hasn’t been a worthwhile MC-able buff of decent duration since you needed FR way back in the day. Other stuff, like Flower Power, were inside the instance themselves, and thus still could have occurred.

        Yeah, rebuffing is simple enough, but it’s still annoying to have to do needlessly just because someone had to step out and grab something or what have you, especially when there’s other solutions without a similar drawback.

      • Skaarrj says:

        Basically what I’m trying to say is that “rebuffing” isn’t a strong enough reason for me to see the negatives for the idea i put forth.

      • Skaarrj says:

        I would welcome any solution that solved this problem without nerfing likened abilities in pvp or pve.

      • Consider says:

        The issue is your assumption that some abilities don’t need any nerfing in PvP or PvE. A full duration Shadowform, Windfury, Seal, etcetera, are just too strong for us to have access to.

      • Skaarrj says:

        It needs to last long enough to leave a good impression (aka the reward needs to be very palpable or it will go unused). Probably nothing shorter than a minute for dispellables, and 30 seconds for undispellables. For cool-down activated abilities it should last as long as the duration was at when you copied the ability.

        I do NOT want darksim to be an unused ability.

      • Aram says:

        If every class had an ability similar to Dark Sim or Spell Steal then your solution would work. It would make sense to clear all buffs since it would be crazy to balance the game with the expectation that no class would bring an outside buff.

        But its only 2 abilities for 2 classes. Clearing buffs for everyone on zoning is overkill. It will discourage using the summoning stones or going to the bank or other common mid raid activities. It would remove a lot of the convenience from the game that is simply not necessary to do.

        It will cause extra downtime in raids leading to longer raids. Raids should be longer because they have more content, not because they have extra downtime.

        And yes, there are world buffs that can be stolen. I know mages in a 12/12 HM ICC guild on my server that are using them on a semi-regular basis. These are the so called “Dragonblight buffs.”

  11. Skaarrj says:

    Oh, and there would be a cap obviously. But it doesn’t need to be a lame 30 seconds or whatnot. It should probably last as long as the duration of the cooldown itself. Intelligent use of the ability should be rewarding. I can’t find it rewarding if the ability has a short duration unless it’s EXTREMELY potent from what you steal.

  12. Clevinger says:

    I don’t see how darksim will be useful in pvp against a half way decent opponent. If I was a mana user I’d stick the debuff on poweraura and as soon as I was debuffed I’d cast a weak spell – lifebloom on my druid.

    I can’t see DK’s ever stealing anything good. Maybe I don’t understand the ability though.

    • Andeus says:

      An intelligent DK won’t use it anytime he has it on cooldown though. There are certain situations where you can force your opponent to use a strong ability.

      For example on a healer when your teammates are bursting on one of his, on a mage trying to run away either from you or maybe another melee of your group (Forst Nova? Blink? anything is good), keeping an eye on someone with CC to get his CC etc. etc.

      I have one question though. Since you gain a buff when you activate it, does that make it viable for Spellsteal? Then the mage gets the ability you stole?

      • Clevinger says:

        Surely, all you will do is delay their spell for one GCD though.

        For example, I’m on my druid and my warrior partner is at 10%. I’m about to cast nourish and up pops my poweraura warning that I have the darksim debuff on me. I cast lifebloom to clear the debuff and then cast nourish.

        My point is that every class has a rubbish spell they can cast to react to the darksim debuff and clear it. I’m worried that will make the ability too easy to counter.

      • Sag says:

        That is true, I can see a lot of DKs ending up casting unending breath, but it’s still a GCD that the other player had to use not DPSing. Which might let the DK close, or a rune refresh, and even if I ended up only stealing a lifebloom I’d be happy to have a heal if I were on a double DPS team.

        DarkSim will also help to figure out how good your opponent really is. If your druid opponent gets DarkSim cast on him and he stops casting Regrowth or nourish to cast rejuv, he’s probably pretty good, if he instead continues to cast, or instead switches to something like starfire, or roots, then your opponent may be less than stellar.

      • Sag says:

        Forgot to mention that this will probably be an ability that seems ridiculous in normal BGs but is easily countered in arena and rated BGs.

      • Clevinger says:

        I can see the spell becoming renamed as Slow Fall, Unending breath, Fade, Water Walking or Hand of Salvation. Only druids really lack a truly useless spell. Teleport Moonglade might work if the cast only needs to be started.

      • Andeus says:

        We got to take into account Cataclysm PVP too, not put it into WotLK situations.

        I’ll try to place it in Clevinger’s example:
        “For example, I’m on my druid and my warrior partner is at 10%. I’m about to cast nourish and up pops my poweraura warning that I have the darksim debuff on me. I cast lifebloom to clear the debuff and then cast nourish.”

        Ok, I assume casting Lifebloom is gonna be expensive (like all heals afaik), so apparently the DK forced you to waste mana while at the same time he gained a heal and thus saved some mana for his healer. In a world where there aren’t endless mana pools, like nowadays in WotLK, this is bigger than you think.
        The alternatives would be…erm maybe go through with the big heal and hope that your time will offset the damage? Dispel it immediately off the DK (don’t know if that’s possible)? Even though Dispels are gonna be expensive too, so thats not really a good option either.

        What if the DK is good and he cast DSim while you were casting a strong heal? Like instead of an interrupt. Can it work like that? Would you stop casting and switch to Lifebloom? That would make you lose 2 GCDs, even more time for that Warrior to die.

        Yes they gained, 1-2 GCD but that could be enough to get him to 5% Health and remember that you won’t heal as much as you do now, you’re gonna have to spam heal him –> Become vulnerable –> Waste lots of mana. Add to that, that the DK maybe used Necrotic Strike on the Warrior after he used DSim on you and the Warriors chances of surviving get pretty slim.

        I think it’s safe to assume that DSim is even more OP than we think.

      • Andeus says:

        Sorry for the double post, they really need to add an edit option for sleepyheads like me 😛 :

        “erm maybe go through with the big heal and hope that your time will offset the damage?”

        time=team

  13. Aisiqu says:

    Then your warrior friend dies. Alternatively you cast Nourish, keep your partner alive and the DK gets a 1 time use heal spell that has to be used within the 20 seconds if at all.

    I agree with DSim definitely being overpowered in its current beta state and even after a time limit fix, pve or pvp regardless. It should be restricted to single target spell which don’t include self buffs, cause that is what the tooltip actually reads as.

    It should also be off the gcd to make timing easier, especially with the speed of crowd control spells these days (even if base cast has been increased to 2 seconds, haste will still make it hard for the average aussie player like me T_T).

    Not sure how the pve ramifications will work but I’d be content if it was something like spell steal / spell reflect. That is, a nifty utility tool that isn’t used every single encounter but can be used sometimes here and there (think AMS) to give you the extra edge.

  14. Seamus McGowan says:

    Just a note, it is extremely unlikely you will copy Windfury outside of a duel. 1) The imbues last 30 minutes 2) they survive death 3) they’re instant cast

    I don’t ever remember my shammy ever casting Windfury on my weapon in a bg or arena other then when waiting for the start.

    Can it happen? Sure, but I imagine you are more likely to get hit by lightning, (real lightning).

    As for hoping in and out of a raid or dungeon to duel someone for a buff. Gah I can’t believe they’ll want to promote that nonsense. They don’t need to strip all buffs to stop it, just strip Dark Sim on zone. It’s not fun to jump in and out of a raid for a stupid, op buff.

    Also we don’t steal the spell, we copy it. Very important distinction.

    • Leviatharan says:

      Well it’s what mages used to do all the time back when 5man Heroic achievements were hard… for Gotta Go! especially, back when you needed to kill Anub’arak in 2 mins I think. You’d have a mage fly out into Storm Peaks, spellsteal some overpowered haste buff from a Val’kyr there, and then have a warlock summon them back so you could make full use of the buff.
      People did it for FIVE MANS, of course we’ll be seeing something similar for raids…

  15. Andeus says:

    To be honest, I’m having a problem imagining many good uses for DSim in PVE. I think it’s gonna be just like Spellsteal which in my book qualifies as situational at best.

    Actually that’s the one thing I hated about our Cataclysm class preview back in April: Our new abilities seem very PVP-oriented compared to what other classes got. Now, I know that we needed some help on that department but all 3 of them (with Outbreak the least) seem so “one-sided”, if you know what I mean.

    It’s kinda disappointing then to see other classes’ abilities have multiple uses on both environments.

    • Sag says:

      If they really do make the world mobs as strong as they say they want to then DSim could be used a lot while soloing. Almost every mob that has a healing spell takes time to cast it, even things like renew. That could be very handy while leveling, esp since blood is no longer a DPS tree it could help reduce downtime.

      Someone said it is important to remember that this is not spellsteal. It’s a copy. GC said they wanted to let DSim copy as much as possible. This means timing major some boss abilities may be possible. Even the simple ones, like frostbolt volley, or something like that could be a DPS increase depending on how they are factored in. That does mean that in certain situations it will perform better than others, but I am ok with that providing we are not balanced around using the ability on every boss.

    • frozenblows says:

      Dark Simulacrum specifically mentions a mana cost so that would limit its usefulness on bosses would it not? Unless every boss ability uses mana somehow even if its not their main resource. I think they are more concerned with making sure that people understand that insanely powerful boss abilities will not be able to be copied (C’thun eye beam).

  16. Nero says:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe GC, or someone else, stated a long while back that certain abilities bosses use will not be copied by DSim. I unfortunately can’t find the post, but I’m certain with a little digging it can be unearthed.

    • Sag says:

      I believe he was referring to things that would wipe the raid. You can’t get a cast DSim, get DIed, then when the boss resets after wiping everyone, remove DI and release DSim to one shot the boss. That being said I am sure there are several abilities that bosses have that DKs will not be able to copy. It’s really a matter of not being balanced around being able to copy certain boss abilities and being OP because of them. Looking at all of the mages here.

      • Nero says:

        DSim for DIed wouldn’t work on the boss seeing as how the original spell wouldn’t either. Unless I’m reading your post wrong. In either case my post wasn’t so much on the balance of the spell, but on not really needing to worry about copying boss abilities. Hence the focus can just remain on players and the time value for copied spells.

  17. Skaarrj says:

    I’d like to see a post from consider about frost’s 31 point talent being…out of place so we can discuss it. The only reason why it was moved so far up was because you get “trick-spec” it and get key talents in unholy and pump out insane damage. But now that you can’t subspec more than 10 points into a tree, we should see a “cool” 31 point frost talent than an AOE talent that we probably will not use (since GC said that each spec has their own AOE move, blood=blood boil, unholy = pestilence diseases, frost = howling blast) often since cataclysm see’s a reduction in AOE situations.

    As for the current discussion, i just want darksim to be very useful in a pvp environment when used correctly.

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