Build 12984 – RE’s Replacement

It’s 4:40 AM EST, and I really should head off to sleep. I believe this is it, save a potential number change or two which isn’t that interesting. Boubouille has now covered us on Mmo-champion, and it appears that I didn’t miss a single thing (Frozen Heart, Frost’s mastery, has always been 20% baseline, so he’s mistaken there), so I can rest easy!

I’ll post my thoughts on everything tomorrow, but nice changes in general.

General

  • Switching presences now consumes all runic power, but no longer costs their namesake rune.
  • Our tier 11 sets are named Magma Plated Battlegear, Magma Plated Battlearmor and Gladiator’s Desecration for dps, tanking, and PvP, respectively.

Blood

  • Death Strike now heals for a minimum of 10% of your maximum health, up from 5%.
  • [Tier 7] Dancing Rune Weapon buffed – Cooldown reduced to 60 seconds from 90.

Frost

  • Frost Fever now has a base duration of 21 seconds, down from 30.
  • [Tier 2] Annihilation buffed – Increases the damage of Obliterate by 15/30/45%, up from 10/20/30%.
  • [Tier 3] Killing Machine changed – Now affects Obliterate, in addition to Icy Touch and Frost Strike. No longer affects Howling Blast.

Unholy

  • Blood Plague now has a base duration of 21 seconds, down from 30.
  • Necrotic Strike heavily modified, now reads – A vicious strike that deals 100% weapon damage and absorbs the next [0.75*AP] healing received by the target. For 15 sec, or until the full amount of healing is absorbed, the target’s casting time is increased by 30%.
  • [Tier 1] Epidemic nerfed – Increases the duration of diseases by 4/8/12 seconds, down from 6/12/18.
  • [Tier 3] New talent; Runic Corruption – Reduces the cost of your Death Coil by 3/6, and causes your Runic Empowerment ability to no longer refresh a depleted rune, but instead to increase your rune regeneration rate by 50/100% for 3 sec.
  • [Tier 3] Necrosis removed.
  • [Tier 3] Unholy Frenzy changed – Health loss reduced to 2%/3seconds, down from 3%/2seconds.
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65 Responses to Build 12984 – RE’s Replacement

  1. Skaarrj says:

    Ugh, applying diseases via runes suck now with the new rune system, the longer the diseases the better. I dislike having to apply them with the new rune system, since each rune accounts for significantly more than previously.

    • Kio says:

      I think that’s what Outbreak is for. In other news, losing all RP while changing presences is a bummer for PvP, but I guess it puts us in the same boat as warriors now.

      • Skaarrj says:

        Bot true. Warriors keep up to 75 rage when stance dancing. Or it’s 50. It’s one of the two.

        But about those diseases, outbreak needs to be on a cooldown equal to talented disease length. I can’t stand the thought of using any runes for diseases with runes being as important as they are now compared to live.

  2. Disargeria says:

    Huh? I started up the beta but there’s no new build. Nothing downloaded and I can log in.

    But I did notice Death Grip doesn’t have a minimum range as of the last build.

  3. Anonymous says:

    The switching presences consuming all runic power thing is a tad disappointing for PvP, but I guess it wasn’t fair that Warriors lose all rage when swapping stances and we didn’t lose anything…

  4. Kraav says:

    LOL we are warriors now! Losing all RP when we switch presence wow. Buff the shit out of necrotic strike then please.

    • Scuzoid says:

      Sounds like the RE talent is replacing Necrosis. That’ll be a significant dps loss no matter how cool it may be to not have to mass spam scourge strike.

      • Scuzoid says:

        Ugh, and forcing blood/frost to maintain 3/3 epidemic when 3/3 virulence seems necessary (Blood boil misses on bosses will eat the rune, unlike icy touch misses.) …..

    • Kraav says:

      Well all the endless feedback about Necrotic Strike has paid off!

  5. Branith says:

    Negative about Changing Presences is bad for PvP. Its an amazing buff that allows us to switch presence without wasting a rune, the trade off is loosing all your RP so you couldnt pool 130 RP in UH presence and switch to Frost and dump it. Im a Gladiator DK and this change is great for us. No longer will I be caught in an untimely position with no frost (or in Cata’s state a Blood) Rune to switch to alleviate some of the presure. I cant tell you how many games where I died when I got hard swapped and died cause I had 3-4 secs left on a Frost rune to come up to switch presences. And dont say Runetap, because every good DK uses runetap to make sure strangulate or AMZ is available on demand.

    • Scuzoid says:

      Agreed. RP cost on stance dancing is MUCH better than a rune cost.

      Has anyone suggested allowing the use of two rune strikes within ten seconds or something after a dodge/parry. Going from 55% (35% icc) dodge+parry on live to 43% (23% icc) ptr 80 to ~30% Cata 85 is going to have a rather drastic effect on blood’s Runic empowerment. I find myself using death coil about half as often as I use rune strike on the PTR in heroics. That’s a rather large amount compared to what I’m used to all because rune strike just isn’t available. Losing another ~10% or so once I hit 85 is just going to escalate this.

    • Kio says:

      At the time I thought it was bad I didn’t know it didn’t cost a rune. It is indeed a good change.

      • Seamus says:

        WRT Runestrike, I got on the new PTR build and RS was coming up just like on Live, pretty much all the time. In the previous build it hardly came up.

        I’d be interested in hearing if this is the case on beta.

        BTW I think a lot of folks need to get off the dummies and test out the new DK, its very close to being a new class, as its a completely different feel. While testing out on the dummies I quickly got lost trying to figure out how to play again. So I said screw it and headed out to Icecrown and it was a much more natural experience.

        Using Blood spec it has never been easier taking down elites or Chill solo. With elites I didn’t take any damage at all, (numbers issue?), and didn’t bother with DS at all. Chill I took some damage, but it was easier then ever.

        Using Frost spec it was a bit more difficult, but I’ve never played Frost spec before and it showed. But the new power auras are awesome and the spec hits like a truck. On Chill I ended the fight with half health but did not use DS at all. Once I actually understand the spec I’ll do even better.

        The DS buff should help soloing in Cata a bit for Frost, just swap DS for Oblit. Yeah I know, but everyone uses a different spec/abilities while leveling.

        Saved Unholy, my fav tree, for tonight. I love the changes with the pet. I hope 2H remains viable at launch, just not a fan of dual wield with this class.

        All-in-all the class is still fun! Get off the dummies and hit up some elites and dungeons for evaluation. Raids are kinda tuff considering the state all the classes, (folks re-learning), are in but definitely doable.

  6. Kraav says:

    Yes Branith I agree. When I first read the changes I thought it was rune plus lose of RP to switch presences. With it just costing RP to change, it is indeed a pvp buff for the reasons you stated.

  7. Branith says:

    Ohh and lest I forget to mention Necrotic Strike is ‘TEH SEX’ now. Huge huge buff and we may now be able to kill healers plus bring some Curse of Tongues to bear down on enemy casters. it is actually useful to keep it up at all times now.

    • Scuzoid says:

      The problem with that, of course, is desecration and the loss of our “root”

      • Scuzoid says:

        Glyph of heart strike has been 30% the whole time on the ptr. Before anyone starts crying about their further nerfed threat (Btw, zero mitigation glyphs for DK tanks is bizarre imo. I suppose it’s to make up for the massive amount of mitigation talents in the blood tree?)

  8. Anonymous says:

    FFS Blizzard why the hell does Blood not have access to Runic Corruption? It benefits more from it than [b]any[/b] other tree!

    Bah.

    • Insolence says:

      Sweet got login issues too.

      • Scuzoid says:

        Blood’s RE is fine at ~45% avoidance. Find a healer and go play around with Moorabi in heroic Gundrak at 80. Let him turn into a mammoth. I rarely had free globals as a single target encounter where I needed to cycle cooldowns. It’s level 85 avoidance level and how they effect rune strike which seems like it could become an issue.

        That said, Moorabi is pretty fun altogether. Do your stuff till he’s around 5%, then let your healer see how long he can keep you up. The stacking bleed gets pretty rediculous.

      • Insolence says:

        Mate in Beta I spend half my time pressing Rune Strike just praying I’ll get a proc, its reliance to Avoidance is causing us to have 60-100 RP in most cases with 2/3 SoB and nothing decent to spend it, because spending GCDs on Death Coil is just pathetic.

      • Scuzoid says:

        @Insol

        Icc25 live. For every 3 runestrikes (approx 20 seconds) I end up having to use a death coil because I don’t eat enough RP via RuneStrike to stay below ~70 RP. I am hit capped and around 40 expertise, so I have the globals to use the death coils.

        Heroic 5 mans PTR: For every 3 rune strikes, I end up having to use a death coil because I don’t eat enough RP via rune strike to stay below ~70 RP. Same hit, same expertise, so I have the globals to use the death coils.

        Yes, Death coil usage is annoying and low threat. Even so, due to vengeance, my death coils on the PTR at 80 are averaging twice the damage they do on live. That’s pretty useful. Now, if my avoidance at 85 drops significantly below my ICC live avoidance, I will clearly have an issue maintaining RE procs, even so, If the global is there, even though the DC’s are averaging around half the damage of a rune strike, no point in not using them.

        That said, I certainly hope rune strike changes. I personally don’t mind that it’s tied to parry/dodge, I just don’t want to be expected to maintain obscene amounts of parry/dodge just to maintain threat as I HAD to the month ToC25 launched. 2 Rune Strikes per parry/dodge is plenty for the tps values. It’s just a matter of understanding if any of the tanks are lacking in burst threat, it’ll be DK’s.

  9. Jonneh says:

    RE talent is a good change, but even so. I can only imagine this makes the GCD issue worse in the short term? Instead of speeding one rune to instantly refresh, we refill 3 runes pretty much! (obviously not, but its feels stronger) Perhaps the plan is to just get mechanics correct before solving the GCD issue, unless he/they still believe the GCD issue is in our heads. Did you make and post the 0 haste dummy video from the beta about GCD capping, Consider?

    Still sucks for frost though. Are they expected to use IT/PS on RE procs then?

    NS change good, assumed they’d fix it up for us. One more bar space goes bye bye in pvp anyway. Need a bar mod which remembers binds based on profiles for different specs and stuff. Swapping between two just sucks, especially when you respec one of them all the bloody skills come off the bars anyway! grr!

    I find myself a bit sad to see Necrosis go. Nothing more than premature nostalgia though I think. It was boring.. Just a shame that we’ve lost most of what made unholy. No more whirling bones, no more necrosis. At least we’ve got AoE still (maybe) and the ghoul has been improved mucho.

    UF kinda better now, 20% health lost over 30 secs. Much more gradual. I guess that’ll be alright.

    So really, the only thing we still don’t have a clue about is GCD capping right? I mean DW Unholy is still an issue, but at least we know that they know about it because of the Q&A bluepost. Last we heard though, GC said GCD capping was all in our heads! (or old gear, more accurately) I guess feedback needs to be directed to that area again, see if we get a bite.

    • Branith says:

      “Still sucks for frost though. Are they expected to use IT/PS on RE procs then?”

      Why would you use the RE rune on that? What dont people understand is you hold the rune for at ‘MAX’ 2-3 secs till a new rune comes off cooldown and then you Obliterate. Theres not rule that says you must use that RE rune right away. There is countless ways to spend that Rune and none of them entail using it for IT, or PS.

  10. Rebellion says:

    So the new disease length is 33 seconds at best ? Meh. I guess in some bizzare way this works for unholy but makes outbreak useless half of the time for all the other specs. But as it was never intended to be a the main disease applicator, well what ever.

  11. frostfright says:

    “Killing Machine no longer affects Howling Blast, now affects Obliterate.”

    Ahahaha. I didn’t think it was possible to entirely destroy a tree with a single patchnote. But then I saw this, and I was shown the light.

    -Obliterate becomes the primary strike, anytime Killing Machine is used on anything but Obliterate, DPS is potentially lost. To put it in perspective, think about how you feel when your Frost Fever goes down and you get a Killing Machine proc. Using it on Icy Touch instead of Frost Strike just sucks. Well now Icy Touch AND Frost Strike get to fulfill the role of “Oh god I hope it doesn’t proc when I cant use Obliterate!”
    -Frost Strike finishes its transformation into melee Death Coil. Dumping RP is now a chore compared to using rune attacks.
    -Killing Machine Howling Blasts, one of the most fun things about the spec, gone.
    -Frozen Heart no longer affects our – potentially – strongest strike, and Mastery becomes lackluster compared to stats like crit and haste, which ensure more Obliterates.
    -The Frost tree now deals very little actual Frost damage (relative to physical).

    I am in awe. It was like they examined their thought process for implementing Dark Transformation, and then did the complete opposite for Frost. I apologize for using your blog as a rant zone, Consider, but I couldn’t NOT comment on this change. Any sort of flow this tree once had due to Killing Machine’d Frost Strikes balancing out with Obliterate is gone, and damn am I sad to see it go.

    • Ganglati says:

      Agreed frostfright. This is made even worse thanks to RE. While saving solo runes for Oblit rather than burning them immediately on HB was the best choice already, it wasn’t entirely clear to the more casual players, partly because HB only costs a single rune which is all RE provides, and partly because our Mastery is Frost damage (so HB should scale nicely in the future right…?). With the nerf to our Mastery and the huge buffs to Oblit there can be no doubt what we’re supposed to do now. But Frost is the only tree not waiting on 4 Death Runes and the rune for their signature (single-rune!) strike at some point in its rotation. No, we only get two death runes, our sig strike uses two runes, and our only two death runes regen seqeuentially instead of simultaneously (as Blood’s U- and F-Death and Unholy’s B- and F-Death do), making Oblit the hardest signature strike to use via RE. But the RE transformation that would help Frost out a lot is in Unholy and outside its reach. FML.

      • Insolence says:

        Because it wouldn’t aid Blood? Every tree could benefit from this Talent, especially Blood which has near zero ground access to Haste. I seriously don’t understand why Virulence isn’t Baseline with this as Tier 1 Unholy…. Not to mention why the hell Hand of Doom is still Tier 3 Blood ffs.

        I have no idea what they’re thinking, but they need to wake up and stop doing stupid things already.

      • Ganglati says:

        I totally agree Insolence. My prime experience is with DK DPS though, and the decent tanking experience I do have is in Frost only, so I didn’t feel qualified to comment on its use to Blood. Though from everything I’ve read, it would be stellar for Blood, especially with RS’s cheap cost; they could keep Runic Corruption up quite often (assuming some tweaking to RS’s proc chance/mechanic). Here’s hoping they dump RE in favor of Runic Corruption’s mechanic, as soon as they realize they’re not so much forcing us to react to what ability to use, but to what resources we have. That’s a huge distinction that makes a big difference between fun and annoying.

      • Insolence says:

        I agree, I really hope we don’t leave Beta in our current state. Right now it seems Unholy is getting all the love, whenever they get around to the other 60% of the DKs I’ll get a bit happier, assuming they don’t make stuff stupider.

      • Noin says:

        Mastery wasn’t nerfed. It was always 20% more Frost damage. Don’t know what MMO’s on about.

        The rest of the changes look great. Necrotic Strike got buffed into the stratosphere, while Blizz listened to player feedback and buffed DS. Unholy’s shaping up really nicely, although I dislike the disease change length, to be honest.

        I don’t know why they replaced HB with OB for Killing Machine. That was one of the most iconic things about the spec. Maybe to get a handle of HB’s potential cleave damage? I dunno. Still really lame. :-/

    • Branith says:

      You do realize there is more to this game then PvE DPS. This change is entirely a PvP change because a well known 2900+ rated (highest rated DK in the world) came up with a shadowfrost 4.0 using only the new non cooldown HB and PS for snares via Desecration.

      Im not saying this change is the best but its either this or move HB back to a cooldown.

  12. The Death Strike change at least acknowledges there’s a problem with self-healing. I hope this is an interim step (as in, they wanted to push out a new PTR, but weren’t ready to push out the next true test build for beta for a reason).

    Necrosis is dead. Finally. Good to see, I think. That should help remove something that was helping support UH DW. I don’t know if it’ll be enough, but i doubt it with Sudden Death and Dark Transformation still greatly supporting it. I like that Runic Corruption uses 2 talent points whereas Necrosis took 3. This gives UH one talent point back and lets us fully exploit other trees now. I wish Desecration was one talent point for the full effect since everyone’s going to take it that doesn’t PVP. I also think that overtly PVP talents like Desecration, Resilient Infection, and Unholy Command should have some secondary effect to help make them worth the investment. Not DPS. Just more utility.

    Changing KM to include Obliterate seems to be wanting the Frost DK to do less waiting. That is, they want you to just do what you’re going to do and get your KM benefit without worrying so much about it. If you were going to Icy Touch, do it. If you were going to Obliterate, do it. If you were going to Frost Strike, do it. You’ll get an extra crit and keep right on moving. If they intend for you to use Obliterate more, they’ll add it to Rime, which they haven’t. I think Rime would be better, honestly, if they did, lowering the chance perhaps and having it proc on Frost Strike. That is, make it an inverse Sudden Death. You use your RP strike to proc a chance for your main single-target strike to be free instead of your main single-target strike proc’ing a chance for your RP strike to be free.

    I think Runic Mastery needs to be given the runic generation of Butchery and Butchery needs to have some kind of leveling self-healing be added. I think Bladed Armor needs to go. Flat out. I think BCB is too essential to be buried on the second level of Blood if it’s going to be blocked by BA and Butchery with nothing even close to the same level of dps on Frost’s side. That is, if they insist on putting BCB there with those talents before it, then Frost needs to have Annihilation boosting Death Strike’s damage and Festering Strike’s damage to help make the choice even.

    Virulence doesn’t appear to be going anywhere. I hope it is. I hold out hope.

    The disease length seems odd to me. Everyone is complaining about GCD and suddenly it seems like Blizz is like, “You thought your GCD was bad, here… try THIS!” And boom, everything is worse. Lower RP cost on DC means more DC’s shot. More DC’s shot, means less GCD’s free. Shorter diseases means more FeStr’s needed or more diseases applied via Outbreak and/or IT/PS. Meaning more often we’ll be applying diseases regardless of spec (either by OB or IT/PS, or by FeStr for UH becoming more critical) which would seem to lead to more GCD’s needed. I would think UH wouldn’t suffer nearly as badly, but this could put a lot of pressure on Blood to keep with the PS and Frost to keep with the… everything that applies Frost Fever.

    I guess I’d like to see Frost easily keeping Frost Fever up by practically everything applying it or refreshing it a la FeStr-style disease improvement, with the true test of skill being the DK who keeps Blood Plague up. And for Blood, them easily keeping (and WANTING to keep) Blood Plague up while having the good dk’s keeping Frost Fever up.

    Unholy Frenzy is better, but where is a ghoul heal? Hm. Perhaps that’s the reduced cost of DC’s purpose. Are we supposed to use DC+Lichborne to heal ourselves and DC to heal our ghoul? If so, well… Lichborne needs to be built in.

  13. Alex says:

    [Tier 3] New talent; Runic Corruption – Reduces the cost of your Death Coil by 3/6

    Isn’t this just about the worst thing you can do to fill up our GCDs? The only thing I can think of that would be worse is to increase the RP generation of SS…

  14. Leviatharan says:

    If my GCD maps are right, the disease change doesn’t really have any effect on Unholy, since we already get an extra Festering Strike now that we have Outbreak to apply EP- we don’t need to hit PS/IT/BS. And since they were 72 sec long diseases before the Outbreak->EP change and this only reduced diseases by 15 sec total, we’re still good with the extra Festering Strike.
    But still a pity for Blood or Frost. Unfortunate.

    The Necrotic Strike buff is nice, now Frost and Blood might have something to hit other than PS when RE activates an Unholy rune (and Unholy get’s some more utility just by hitting it instead of a Scourge Strike, at the cost of slightly less damage than before), since the 30% casting reduction has more applications in PvE than even Mortal Strike’s 20% heal-block.

    Now what I find curious though is that Blizz just increased emphasis on Death Coil in Unholy, and Obliterate in Frost- the exact opposite of what we were suggesting if I’m interpreting correctly. Maybe it’s because Blizz realized the change to runes means fewer Blood -> Death Runes for Frost to Obliterate… maybe it’s because Howling Blast was seemingly outdamaging Obliterate… no idea.
    Runic Corruption wouldn’t be entirely worthless if we weren’t already GCD capped, since it means more Festering Strikes with the change to disease durations. Although why Blizzard would reduce Death Coil’s cost is beyond me- 34 RP is still too high to dump three DCs when RP capped unless we have Butchery (which I spose the assumption is we will), and not to sound like a broken record, but we’re still GCD capped.
    Next step, I say they remove Sudden Doom from RE/RC.

    Now I’m curious: can someone explain to me what exactly would happen if the recharge time of runes was increased by maybe 2-3 seconds? I’m predicting another GCD or two (if also more lockdown time, but once class damage is sorted out it shouldn’t matter, and maybe more value for RE and RC) but I’m not really sure anymore. The addition of RC just really makes me wonder…

    • Insolence says:

      “Now I’m curious: can someone explain to me what exactly would happen if the recharge time of runes was increased by maybe 2-3 seconds? I’m predicting another GCD or two (if also more lockdown time, but once class damage is sorted out it shouldn’t matter, and maybe more value for RE and RC) but I’m not really sure anymore. The addition of RC just really makes me wonder…”

      Yeah, you seriously want Tanks to rage at you don’t you? If they increase Rune Cooldown time anymore they’ll slow down Blood Play style even more = even more free GCDs = even less Threat = me Raging. That’s what happens.

      • Leviatharan says:

        That’s kinda what’s going on with the current system already though. They still need to work out something for blood tanks since they can’t runic dump as often as the other two specs even though they generate as much RP as Unholy and their main dump costs half as much runic power. Once they work out something like, say, a talent that makes RS always active instead of just on D/P, then the current (and theoretical) issues should hopefully be resolved (since they can hit RS twice as many times and Unholy can hit DC without sudden doom).

      • Leviatharan says:

        Pardon, ‘AS Unholy without Sudden Doom’.

      • Insolence says:

        Yeah so instead of actually pressing buttons we’ll spend 50% of our time pressing Rune Strike. Sounds lame already.

        Blood should be Runic Power based, so they can mess with those damn Rune Cooldowns and not worry about putting Blood in a worse position than before.

  15. Anonymous says:

    This is probably just a bug but on the ptr a sudden doom proc is not consumed by healing your ghoul.

    I was effectively using one proc to boost my ghoul to 5 stacks prior to a duel :P.

  16. Zokrah says:

    So now the question I guess is whether or not RC will be more dps gain than RE, but the ability to place those points in necrosis into something like MS and AMZ is a plus, atleast for pvp/pve utility.

    Although, I still think it should be baseline for the spec. I don’t see much sense in having a playstyle within a playstyle.

    • Consider says:

      I can state, without any doubt, that RC is unarguably superior to RE in terms of dps gained. Easily worth it. No question. If you don’t spec into it, you’re intentionally gimping yourself as Unholy.

      P.s, there’s no way I can give people the ability to edit comments, unfortunately. I wish there was, but I couldn’t find it ><. If it's really important, just make a double post and make it really obvious what you wanted to edit, and I'll go and do it myself for you. It's what I do anyways.

      • Zokrah says:

        hmm, well here I was hoping for less bloat. At the very least I get one free point to play with.

        I still think it should be baseline/passive.

      • Noin says:

        At the very least we can put another point in Desecration.

        I hate Blood-caked Blade’s position a little more each day. I don’t understand why they haven’t just scrapped Bladed Armor, moved BCB into its place, and moved Hand of Doom down to BCB’s current position. Alas.

  17. Skaarrj says:

    There’s one thing im disapointed with that i havent seen at all, which i feel is a huge thing for DK’s in 5 mans and raids.

    Where is our CC?

    Since Chains of Ice seem’s to not be good anymore, i’d like to see it turned into a CC. Chaining a target down with ice, making them unable to attack or use special abilities, won’t break on diseases.

    • Leviatharan says:

      First of all… that’s exactly what Hungering Cold is. But I agree that something like it should be made baseline, and the current Hungering Cold talent in Frost should be replaced with something else (like a talent that explicitly states that spells cast on HC’d targets deal additional damage like how Blizz wanted Howling Blast to).
      At this point it looks like we’re just getting all of the mini-CCs. We’ve got Chains of Ice to slow them physically, Necrotic Strike to slow casting speed, Ghoul Gnaw to stun for Unholy, Hungering Cold to incapacitate for Frost, Dark Transformation’s Gnaw and Leap to incapacitate for Unholy, etc.

    • Unless DK’s get a CC or dungeons change (or are not how a lot of Beta testers are describing), it sounds like DK’s (and warriors) are going to be a real liability to take in dungeons filled with, “They bitched about too much AOE, so now here go CC hogwild” mentality. You can argue that another CC class can take up the slack, but having CC is always preferable to having less, so it makes the two classes without it pretty subpar for DPS roles.

      I think Hungering Cold is a pretty poor substitute because it leaves Frost Fever on the target and it lasts a really short time. FF keeps it from being a temporary thing that someone else will pick up later, plus the initial application is so short that it would probably not even be worth bothering with. Its just a damn poor CC.

      I think DK’s need a CC that is usable only in PVE. Perhaps “Northrend’s Grasp – You encase the target an icy tomb made from the tainted ice at the very heart of Northrend, paralyzing the target for xx seconds. Any damage will break the ice. Only works on NPC living creatures. Not usable in arenas or battlegrounds.” I don’t think dk’s need a CC in PVP, which is why I think it should be PVE-only.

      Hell, I wouldn’t mind a glyph that turned Hungering Cold INTO something like this. That is, a single target CC with a longer duration that did not infect the target with Frost Fever. But having only Frost be able to CC would still be a problem.

      I really wish they’d give dk’s some of their %dam to healing back. Other classes have it now and dk’s no longer do. And other heals are just better than DS, too. Not to mention Unholy’s still going to have a really hard time doing a DS and not watching their rotations/diseases crumble into dust. Toss in ghouls having a REALLY long CD for such a now-important part of the UH damage profile, no way to heal said ghoul to keep it from dying except by throwing away several also-now-more-important parts of the UH damage profile, and I think I’m wondering why Blizzard hasn’t addressed these easily obvious holes.

  18. Anaroth says:

    Hmmm interesting changes.

    On the whole I like runic corruption, although unlike what GC suggested it isn’t really an optional talent if it has a dc rp cost reduction in it.

    I wonder if the nature of the talent (even more rune regen) suggests that they’re going to do something to unholy presence or perhaps even the improvement talent.
    Anything that consumes more gcds pushes us towards frost presence.

    As an interesting side effect there’s about a 20% chance that if you do two DCs in a row, you’ll get a double proc, and so (presumably) clip your buff a bit. Thus we might want to interleave DCs if we can.

    I tend to agree that the unholy rotation will be mostly alright with the disease change. Although it will be a close run thing, but one other consequence of the Runic Corruption change is that we will be doing more festering strikes as RE procs won’t screw up the runes any more.

  19. Alex says:

    You might know about the ‘create your own talent tree’ site – http://www.war-tools.com. I’ve copied the talent trees from the current built here: http://www.war-tools.com/t70735.html, so people can easily load this tree and edit it as they please. Note that the masteries are located at the bottom of each tree.

    I’ve started working on my own version of the DK trees, starting with Unholy here: http://www.war-tools.com/ct.html?l=70743.

    My goals are the following:
    1. Make minimal changes to the current trees.
    2. Remove bland talents as per Blizzard’s vision.
    3. Minimise the current GCD issues.
    4. Get Unholy back into 2H territory.
    5. Keep the tree ‘flowing’ – no matter if you’re interested in PvP, PvE and levelling, it should be easy to construct a build for yourself.
    6. Try to get 41 talent points per tree.
    7. Try to introduce ‘flavour’ in our rotation, in the form of randomness.
    8. Stay away from talents I don’t understand – I’m still not sure how the new disease durations will shape up, so I haven’t touched that, nor do I know the specifics behind the ghoul.

    I’ve currently done a pass on Unholy only, and I think I’ve been very careful with my design. When I get to frost I’ll put Nerves of Cold Steel out of Unholy’s reach, so that should make 2H Unholy completely safe for my trees.

    Any criticism is welcome.

  20. Scuzoid says:

    On the subject of CC. Firstly, none of the tanks have, nor will ever have, effective PVE CC. Nor should they. We do have short duration abilities to prevent any damage output by npcs though. These are either on long cooldowns (Hammer of Justice/Intimidating Shout), ineffective to use for anything other than the start of a pull (Cyclone) or only effective on melee targets who can still end up aggroing a new target (Chains of Ice/Desecration). Now, Feral, Ret, and Moonkin have no issues maintaining CC as a spec even though their prot counterparts cannot. Due to this, any suggested CC should be unusable by Blood/Prot warriors (Even prot/blood pvp warriors/dks imo), meanwhile, our current short duration long cooldown CC’s (Intimidating Shout/Hungering Cold) shouldn’t be altered in anyway almost entirely due to how this alter’s pvp viability for the class/spec.

    End result, VERY wordy glyphs imo. For an infinite duration npc CC as nearly every other dps spec has (Rogues being the exception with others being npc race specific) we should give up some of our utility to use this CC while it maintain the opportunity cost of said utility. Being our snares. IMO, a glyph that removes the snare component of Hamstring and Chains of Ice should be the way to go. To prevent this CC that has no cooldown (Albeit a rage/rune cost) from being used in WSG, the wordy glyphs should make it perfectly clear this glyph has no effect on players minus the fact you just used a global to snare someone but the snare was turned off. In addition, since Hamstring already has a stance restriction, the new “Glyph of Chains” would also need to make it clear using CoI in Blood presence does nothing. Then on line twenty of the Chains of Ice glyph, it should also point out that using chains of ice no longer applies any diseases to include ebon plague. All while restricting the number of targets this glyph can effect to one at a time and that the targets would break free of their chains/disorient the moment they took any damage.

    These aren’t perfect fixes imo, as Glyph of dizzy Hamstring would be the only CC that requires melee range with a target that can (And all his buddies) immediately one shot the warrior, but good warriors will easily make it work. Tanks/ranged CCer’s will always be able to initiate the pull at range, warriors will then be able to charge/intercept their target to stun it to prevent a parry/dodge of their melee CC. The singular problem with this being Deep Wounds procing in between the GCD of charge/intercept and Hamstring. I suspect a /stopattack /cast Hamstring macro spammed in route right after charge/intercept is hit would prevent this, but I’m not certain.

    So again, this clearly isn’t perfect, but, honestly, expecting warriors/dk’s to tank if they want to use the lfd system for a dungeon that requires heavy use of CC is likely frustrating for some people (I personally enjoy tanking, but I’ve known plenty of Dk’s who are strict pve dps/pve dps or pve dps/pvp dps types.)

    • Scuzoid says:

      Also, if something vaguely similar hasn’t already been suggested on the official forums in recent memory, I do not mind plagiarism as I’ve been permanently banned for quite some time now.

      • Jhadur says:

        I’ve suggested that Strangulate be made into a CC, as a cyclone clone with limited applicability. You know, the target kind of needs a throat to be choked, so limited to humanoids, beasts, and undead and everything else isnt solid enough(elementals), small enough(giants,dragons), or vulnerable to shadow magic enough(demons). Give it a 1min cd reducable by a talent to 20 sec and a 10 sec duration plus it would still cost a blood rune and thats not too strong but still worth it in small groups.

      • Scuzoid says:

        @jhadur

        My issue with that is unholy and arms really don’t need a pvp cc in my experience. You may argue otherwise, but my post was structured around what I’ve done in bgs/arenas. Meanwhile, fury looks like it’ll be somewhat capable without a semi reliable pvp CC as well in cata, as such, no reason to add one imo. Meaning this CC should be strictly for pve. At which point, why exactly shouldn’t dps warriors and DK’s have a sustainable single target pve CC? Finally, how do you give arms/unholy a sustainable pve CC if the talents to support it are in fury/frost? Especially if these talents include little to no pve dps as all talented CC/CC support talents tend to share.

        Warriors and DK’s really should have a CC glyph limited to Frost/Fury/Unholy/Arms strictly for pve that is sustainable on a single target.

      • Jhadur says:

        @Scuzoid

        As an example of talent layout: http://war-tools.com/t70690.html (how I wish these were the current trees)

        I have it in tier 1 blood so frost and unholy can get it, mostly as a pve utility talent option and while blood can get it they might have to possibly sacrifice something else for that utility, like survival talents or threat talents. As for pvp I’ve had little experience of late so I’ll have to defer to other observations on that.

    • Azerius says:

      Repentance and Hibernate say hi

      • Scuzoid says:

        What? I’m pretty sure my post didn’t require anything more than a fifth grade reading level to understand. Are you suggesting we should have a pvp cc for both unholy and frost? Are you suggesting repentance/hibernate aren’t sustainable pve ccs? Or do you simply misunderstand: “Feral, Ret, and Moonkin have no issues maintaining CC”?

      • Consider says:

        Entangling Roots has an unlimited duration in this patch, at the moment.

        Hehe.

        Bugs are amusing!

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