The Latest – The Greatest

Consider this my typical post-patch commentary. It’s been delayed a couple of days, but that’s because I’ve been busy actually playing the beta – a lot of these changes need to be experienced to be properly appreciated.

Suffice is to say, this last patch was great, and probably the best (for Unholy) since the start of beta.

Where to begin!

Unholy DW is, essentially, dead, or nerfed enough to not be a threat to 2H Unholy for the foreseeable future (meaning up to 85 in blues; who knows beyond that with raid itemization yet known). The loss of Necrosis hits dual-wielding incredibly hard – much moreso than the removal of Dirge did. Remember, Unholy damage can essentially be split into four categories: pet damage, yellow spell damage, yellow strike damage, and white auto-attack damage. The first two are, for the most part, weapon independent (SD’s impact aside). The third category grossly favors two-handers, of course, and the fourth category leans heavily towards dual-wielding. Necrosis was a huge boost to that last slice of the pie, and with it now gone (on top of the introduction of Runic Corruption), the pendulum of balance shifts back where it belongs. I would still like to see Sudden Doom changed to a proc-per-minute system or some such thing, which would safely guarantee Unholy DW dead for the remainder of the expansion, but for now, the loss of Necrosis does enough. One monkey off the class’s back!

Runic Corruption is amazing. No, it doesn’t help our GCD problems (which are as bad as ever), unfortunately. In fact, it makes them worse when you factor in the runic power cost reduction aspect of the talent! But aside from that (which is an issue I’ll go into later on in this entry), it’s perfect. It’s what Runic Empowerment should have been! The proc, over time, simply gives you additional Scourge Strikes and Festering Strikes (thus also giving more Death Coils, meaning more Runic Corruption procs, meaning more Scourge Strikes and Festering Strikes, meaning more Death Coils… so on and so forth!) by giving you a burst in rune regeneration. What makes it so superior to RE is one essential fact: it affects all three runes at once in an equal proportion. This means no messing with double-rune strikes and/or promoting PS/IT usage. This means no rune desynching or death rune desynching (the latter being the more real problem).  This means the proc is pure bonus and no drawback, which is what a proc should be! You should want to use it when it happens, and not question if you’re doing the right thing or if you’re just going to mess yourself up in the long run. You should want to use the abilities the proc makes available, and not put spells on your bars which do laughable damage and which you wouldn’t ever remotely contemplate anyways. Runic Corruption is perfect, and if there’s one thing Blood and Frost needs, it’s something along the same lines – not necessarily the exact same talent (although it would work great), but something which solves the same problems and has the same lack of drawback.

The disease change isn’t a big deal for Unholy. Festering Strike still extends them by long enough that you never have to use Plague Strike or Icy Touch (save when switching mobs around CC or when you go from mob to mob too quickly). For Frost, it’s a huge bother. Perhaps they should just balance Frost around a single disease (FF) which you then maintain with Rime procs? In a world where you’re not GCD capped, you would still use Outbreak for the free dot once a minute, but if you made the disease coefficient lower on Obliterate, then you wouldn’t bother the rest of the time. I don’t know; all I do know is that the current setup is quite awkward, and essentially mandates three points in Epidemic.

Necrotic Strike I won’t comment on much, as I try to stay away from PvP matters. I’m still of the opinion it would be better off costing runic power; not only would it make it easier to balance (you can tweak it from 10 RP to 100 RP, whereas with runes it’s from one to… two? Plus, you’re pitting its damage/utility against DC/FS/RS, not SS/Oblit/DS), it wouldn’t orphan Frost runes for Blood and Frost. But, alas, not my area of expertise, so what do I know?

One of the best, if most appreciated, aspects of this patch was all of the additional PowerAuras. Now, yes, this is something which could have been replicated with an add-on anyways, but that doesn’t lessen the fact that it’s an excellent feature which will be appreciated by what is probably the majority of players who either don’t use add-ons or don’t use them if they don’t have to. Before this patch, with the default UI, keeping track of Shadow Infusion stacks (and thus when to use Dark Transformation) was a nightmare. Your only option was to actually target your pet – the buff wouldn’t show on the default pet frame or on the focus frame – and it should be rather self explanatory how horrible an option that is! The new poweraura makes it a piece of cake, and the inclusion of KM  is equally excellent.

On to another area: Frost, and the nerf to its mastery on top of the change (buff, in terms of damage) to Killing Machine. The first is a numbers change, which I think is still a bit too early to do (for Frost, at least), but am otherwise indifferent to. Numbers are numbers, and I’m sure the end results will be balanced enough. The KM change is much, much more interesting. The removal of Howling Blast is understandable; a guaranteed crit on an AoE without cooldown is a bit too much. It doesn’t really address the central issue of HB (that being that its incredibly difficult to balance an ability which is AoE but is forced into our single target rotation; see Whirlwind for reasons why!). The addition of Obliterate, however… interesting. It’s clearly a buff – Obliterate hits harder than anything else, DW or 2H, but what’s interesting about it isn’t what it does to your dps, but what it does to your playstyle. Because KM is better spent on Obliterate, and because you can control FS usage more than you can Oblit usage, you’re going to want to prioritize FS over Oblit until a KM proc comes up or until you have your second set of runes 1.5seconds or less from refreshing.  This is different than the old KM where you don’t actually have to react to it (aside from using KM before a Rime HB). I’m probably not putting it into words very well – in fact, I know I’m not – but it’s a large shift to how one treats the proc. Whether it’s a good change or a bad one is debatable (my opinion being the latter with the current RE for various reasons). It also takes away from the theme of the spec (which, on top of the mastery nerf, is a bit strange), but that’s beside the point.

And, finally, we come to Blood. There’s nothing to say here except that the Death Strike buff is most welcome for dps. I would still like to see a bit more accessible self-healing for dpsers; something comparable in potency and ease of use to Recuperate or Victory Rush, at least for solo-purposes. But, in the meantime, the DS buff works – just use it on critters you pass when going from mob to mob or npc to npc!

All in all, I’ve been thoroughly enjoying Unholy this patch – more than I have this entire beta thus far, and certainly more than on live. If Blizzard can work out the GCD issues (hint; change UP/FP for starters! Huge imbalance there), then I dare say the spec is nearly perfect. It would be nice for them to slim down the tree slightly and do something to Virulence, but otherwise, it’s perfect.

Frost and Blood on the other hand… not so much. Another subject for another day, as they say!


95 Responses to The Latest – The Greatest

  1. Insolence says:

    They could make OB like Blood Boil – Only has it’s damage increased by 1 Disease instead of 2?

    Necrotic Strike’s buff is making me think of adding it to my Actionbars as Blood just to get rid of some of those Runic Empowerment Unholy Rune procs, it does some “decent” damage, and if I have a free GCD (which I have too many of) why not.

    Did Killing Machine’s Duration really get nerfed to 10 seconds? Someone said so in a comment, different post.

    • Consider says:

      It did, but the change doesn’t really matter.

    • Seamus says:

      Unholy rune procs?

      I’ve done several heroics, my runes are either blood or death runes at least 80 percent of the time. NS is a pvp ability, plain and simple. You should be weaving HS and DS. You shouldn’t necessarily hold DS back specifically for the heal or bubble, you need to use it for Death Runes so you can fire off any ability when needed. I think in Cata you’ll rarely hold back on DS anyway because the mobs hit so much harder.

      I don’t remember finding myself rune starved, I found I was limited by cool downs more then anything.

      Blood definitely takes a bit more patience then previously, (don’t burn your runes), much more situation awareness, (gone are the days of laying down DnD and spamming abilities), and more movement but I’m loving it.

      • Insolence says:

        Try that again without 10% Haste (like try Tanking in TANK Gear and not DPS Gear which is overfilled with Haste).

        Then tell me you didn’t have Rune issues.

        Anyway we might end up using RE Frost/Unholy Runes to re-fresh Diseases, would mean we gain an extra DS but we have Diseases at odd durations. Well… It’ll get figured out.

    • I think Obliterate should be made more Frosty to help give them some of their class flavor back. It seems like their Mastery should boost Obliterate, which is turning into their sledgehammer single target variant, though Frost Strike is their signature thing, but if you look at UH, you have FeStr which extends diseases and SS which does shadow damage. For Frost, you have Generic Strike #1 (Obliterate) and Frost Strike.

      I don’t think Obliterate should scale with more than one disease. I think obliterate would be given better flavor if it was impacted by the single disease on the target and the spec hitting it. That is, a Frost spec hits a target with Obliterate on a target diseased with Frost Fever. It causes instant Frost damage equal to a tick of the disease. Scale its damage by the Frost mastery, reduce its overall physical damage accordingly. It doesn’t have to be OP to be Frosty.

      Haste on UH presence is problematic for UH. It has been for as long as I’ve known UH presence (beginning of WOTLK). They haven’t changed UH presence, they haven’t made any inclination that they’re GOING to change UH presence. I think we need to begin to allow for the possibility it is not changing and we are again intended to use the DPS presence (Frost this time) versus UH presence being a PVP/utility presence.

      It seems to me that if you wanted UH presence to be useful to UH, you’d have it do something useful to UH like, “While in Unholy Presence, your haste is boosted by xx%, your diseases scale with haste, and your runspeed is increased by xx%.” I don’t think they’ll ever get rune gen improved by haste to work without GCD issues unless it is seriously undertuned. And for the reasons Consider’s stated, they’ll never allow for reduced GCD’s.

      I like that Necrotic Strike has a use outside of PVP, even if a minor one. I like the DS improvement, but I think boosting it back to the Frost level from Live WOTLK when it costs us practically twice the resources to use (especially compared to MM hunters getting 5% every time they use their signature shot, etc.) is not enough. If they don’t want to give DK’s a %dam to healing thing (like the old Blood Presence) or Mark of the Blood, then perhaps they should put a talent to improve DS for Unholy and Frost in the first two tiers of Blood to replace either Bladed Armor or Butchery, neither of which are very interesting, yet seem to be required of any dps spec. I say “improve for UH and Frost” because Blood already has a way to improve DS for their uses.

      I still think it’d be great if abilities like FeStr, Necrotic Strike, or Death Strike–abilities other specs might like to use if the rune costs were different–transformed depending on what presence you were in. Giving abilities you might not use new uses when in different presences. Probably another pipe dream, there.

  2. Didn’t see you mention it, but UH needs a way to heal their ghoul, which is a large part of their damage now, that does not require targeting your ghoul, firing off a death coil, then retargeting the mob. Sure, you might set your ghoul as your focus, but that seems… odd. No other pet class is requiring you to target your pet to heal it.

    The ghoul either needs a %dam to heal or we need a Ghoul Frenzy heal replacement. Personally, I wouldn’t mind the ghoul having a cd to take a bite out of someone and heal it for xx% over xx seconds. Make it cost RP. I don’t care. I just think using dc for this purpose is clumsy and more of a headache than UH dk’s need to have compared to any other pet spec.

    And 2 minutes to wait for the ghoul? Two minutes? Every other pet spec where so much of their damage is dependent on having the pet has an emergency way to re-summon your pet (at least the first time it dies) pretty much immediately. Even if there’s a cast time. UH DK’s need the same. Personally, I wish they’d give us the functionality of Night of the Dead back. All of that functionality. The Army of the Dead reduction and the active reduction on Raise Dead. Numbers would be tweaked, obviously, but I still think that’s the kind of utility talent PVE UH DK’s absolutely need more of. How they think PVE UH DK’s need Resilient infection/Desecration/Unholy Command (!!!!) but don’t need a useful talent like NotD is beyond me. Y’know, some PVE utility would be great.

    So I think UH’s still got some work to be done. I do think Frost and Blood require a lot more… TLC. In fact, I think the top two tiers of every tree need work.

    • Consider says:

      Minor oversights of Night of the Dead being removed. Cooldown reduction and AoE protection will return. Not really concerned. And with the latter, healing isn’t that pressing of an issue – how often does the ghoul take targetted damage? Not often, and it probably deserves to die in such cases.

      Of course, it wouldn’t hurt to just have a major glyph (of which we’re severely lacking interesting dps options) which heals your ghoul for 15% of your Death Coil damage or some such thing, but as long as it gets the 90% aoe avoidance back, it will be manageable enough.

    • Anaroth says:

      A simple macro like /cast [@pet] DeathCoil should manage to cast the DC on your ghoul.

      • Consider says:

        Not to mention the fact that healing your pet with DC doesn’t consume SD (but will still refund you 20 RP).

        Another means of healing it, although it would be nice, is far from necessary, so long as it gets its AoE protection back, which I would be greatly shocked/confused if it didn’t.

      • I don’t think a macro should be required to do something essential to the class. That’s the logic I use to say that some kind of healing for the ghoul is necessary. I hold the DK to this standard because it’s true for the other pet specs and of the game in general, where the blues have implied that macros should never be required to play the game. At least, that’s the intent. Given that no one else does this for the same action, I’d say it’s the intent here.

        It isn’t a question of my not knowing what the alternative is.

        I agree, though, that the AOE protection returning will help mitigate a lot of this. If it does return. I’m surprised when they altered Ghoul Frenzy into Dark Transformation that they didn’t keep some kind of heal each time it transformed or some kind of reduction on the cd to Raise Dead for each transformation.

      • Sag says:

        I think some ability to heal the pet should probably be tossed in as well. While warlocks and hunters will lose DPS to heal their pet, they really don’t lose a lot of resources to do it. Even 20 RP for a pet DC is pretty stiff when you consider hunters hit one button (not sure of the cost, but probably low) for a pet hot that may be able to remove status effects, and warlocks health funnel, last I checked, has a bonus to it. I am not sure what health funnel looks like in cataclsym though. Also Fel Syngery which heals the pet every time the warlock does damage is a T1 talent available to all warlocks.

    • Alrenous says:

      Death Coil’s healing has been massively buffed too.

    • Zokrah says:

      I’d Like to see something like siphon life where we and our ghoul receive x% of damage back as health from our blood plague.

      It always felt strange to me that only one of our diseases has a debuff effect.

  3. Branith says:

    First the comment on the pet, DC with the macro (I use a huddle + DC macro) is plent all you need. I would also like to see night of the dead return in some fashion, maybe ahve the UH mastery reduce the ghould cooldown to 30 sec and AotD to 5 mins.

    As for Necrotic Strike on RP I disagree, having a clearly PvP move tied to Runes is much more beneficial because RP is precious since the majority of our kills come from chaining 3 DC’s in a row, After Cata it may be different but we’ll see.

    My only problem I have right now is: how good is Runic Corruption for PvP, I clearly see the benegits of having fasting regenerating runes and a reduced cost of DC, but having that spare Rune pop up for additional Chains of Ice is very attractive, but then again having CoI at a 60% snare may make it less useful. Id like some comments from the theorycrafters here on what do you think is better for PvP.

    Last thing Consider, whats your feeling on UH presence vs Frost Presence. On the PTR i do way more damage in frost, even after reforging as much as haste as possible to Mastery. lastlty is Frost Fever suppose to crit? because it clearly isnt on the PTR. If it is I def see mastery for UH being very good to stack, 2k ticks and 4k crits of Blood Plague makes me feel very good vs all the amount of kiting we see on the PTR now.

    • Consider says:

      Frost Presence is far superior to Unholy Presence, untalented. Even talented, IUP is still inferior as long as we’re GCD capped (and it’s only slightly ahead on single target encounters if we’re not).

      Fixing the FP/UP balance is intrinsically linked to fixing the GCD issues as a whole, but yeah, FP wins handily at this point in time.

      • Ganglati says:

        Maybe swap the +damage to Unholy and the +haste to Frost? It would further put the nail in the coffin of DW Unholy, Frost could use the extra haste since Runic Corruption is outside its reach, and as long as the +damage applies to diseases as well, Unholy’s Mastery would get a slight boost too.

      • Sag says:

        Something GC commented on was fury warriors (and maybe rogues) losing a 20% haste buff that frost brings because that 20% haste is too important for their (fury warriors) DPS. So they are looking to nerf this buff like the ebon plague buff got nerfed from 13% to 8%. Should that sort of nerf go through, switching the prescences would be a great (and easy) way to get frost its haste back to 20%.

    • Jesabelle says:

      “lastlty is Frost Fever suppose to crit? because it clearly isnt on the PTR.”

      That’s a bug when you use the glyph of icy touch.

  4. Alrenous says:

    Have you ever used Bloodthirst? It’s 3% of your health. I haven’t used it recently either, but the healing was almost negligible, and the healing hasn’t been buffed since then. You’re probably thinking of Cata Victory Rush which is a solid 20%.

    The problem right now is that either Unholy is GCD capped without haste, and can’t use more, or it’s GCD capped with max haste, and right now there’d be gaping lacunae in the rotation.

    Warriors specifically have Heroic to dump excess rage. Hunters can spam Steady in their downtime, so they don’t need massive regeneration. I assume rogues have something similar. But DKs by nature cannot spend more runes without using more GCDs. In other words, having haste decrease rune cooldown is horribly difficult to balance properly. I won’t go so far as to say it’s a design disaster, because they may have a plan they’ve not deigned to share, but for example they’d need to consider making DKs the exception and lowering our GCD like a caster.

    Otherwise, they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, just like they are with Howling Blast’s damage, unless they drop the haste-rune link and just do something else entirely.

    • Consider says:

      I would be thinking Victory Rush! BT still isn’t that bad though. I mean, if an attack I’m using on CD anyways healed for 3%, that’s free, so who can complain?

      • Waylandyr says:

        OO they could add “Haste now causes your GCD to be reduced, no lower than 1 sec” to virulence >.>

      • Consider says:

        Nah. The odds of that happening are next to nil; it would cause various balance issues, and besides, GC has stated they don’t like reducing GCDs.

        Fixing the GCD issue isn’t that difficult:

        First off, completely revamp UP. It needs to be done anyways to balance it with FP, even if you ignore the global situation.

        Secondly, remove the current GoFS. Make the glyph cause your FS to apply razorice. Make your glyph cause your FS to consume 25% more RP but deal 35% mroe damage. Make your FS apply some sort of buff/debuff. Whatever. RP reduction is unnecessary with the buffed RP generation rates, and it really makes it difficult to fix things for Frost.

        Third, don’t let haste increase rune regen (otherwise it’s going to be the “master stat” short of them making the conversion rate twice as high as all the other states – which is unlikely since that would make it laughably weak for other classes, not to mention haste is currently cheaper). Haste has historically been a strong stat for us as is, and will continue to be so with the new SD and the buffed KM. Adding rune regen to it makes it much, much too strong, and we’re going to stack it until whatever point we get GCD capped.

        Fourth, if the above isn’t sufficient (although it should be close enough), just tweak RE/RC proc rates slightly. You could easily bump each down to 35% proc rate or what have you. They would still be huge dps boosts and still proc often enough. Alternatively, you could nerf SD/Rime proc rates, but that would be harder since both of those procs are less GCD-consumptive than RE/RC.

        Nothing exotic needs to be done, just a couple of simple (but important) changes. Alternatively, they could take the easy way out and just nerf RP generation back to live values, but that would leave a lot of these other issues (UP/haste rating/etc) untouched and still problematic in other ways.

      • Insolence says:

        Oh please no, would be a horrible change for Blood, we already have so much downtime with nothing to press, this would just make it worse. We’d be un-able to pick up Virulence at all so we’d be forced to go Epidemic + Unholy Command >.<

      • Jonneh says:

        I, like you Consider, can’t really see the wisdom of allowing haste to grant the melee classes more resources.

        Its a nice idea to mix up play a little, but its just too powerful to balance along with the other stats. Rogues are in the same boat I must imagine, eventually they’d get to a point where they get energy back so fast that they can spam so many extra specials for combo points that they can afford all their finishers while wasting some on evis or something silly.

        Warriors always were in this boat, but they have a true resource dump with Heroic Strike (at least it was, probably still is now). Haste always increased thier resource generation, and still does though somewhat less directly. As anyone who leads raids or follows class changes as a whole can point out, that just ended in constant balance issues for warriors. Being so flooded for resources that they could afford to use their “dump” on every single swing and increase DPS so, so much. All that has really happened now is they are the same as us. Dumping these extra resources they’ll get from haste requires more GCDs. Haste becomes a great stat until you reach that point where there are no more GCDs and boom, its all gone.

        Here is a question I’d like to see answered;

        How much haste before we dont have time to press HoW anymore cause its a DPS loss? Assume for a moment that someone else provides the buff as well. How long before that GCD is more valuable to us as something else? Same for warriors with shouts? (same mechanic now, it generates rage for them and has a cooldown)

        Now imagine how crappy that will be for you if you are the only guy providing the buff. I’m not trying to say providing raid buffs is stupid play, clearly its not. The point I’m trying to make is; doesn’t that seem contrary to the design intent behind those buff abilities? They’re meant to be something we use to give a slight dps increase and use a ‘gap’ GCD. Rewarding us for keeping our buff up with some slight dps.

        Shadow priests were in a similar boat for the same reason cause of haste in wotlk. Haste became so powerful that mindflay actually outdid mind blast for dps. So they just dropped MB from their dps rotations. Unfortunately you had to MB in order to provide Replenishment, but it was a total dps loss.

        Fun situation? I think not!

        I have no idea what the solution is. Probably let haste affect our dots but not rune regen, balance out the DPS that way. Haste will still be a valued stat, but not so dominant that we’ll be forced to pick up as much as we can until we hit the brick wall of GCD cap (which is 0 atm!)

        The way things are going, haste is just going to be the new ArP.

      • Sevyne says:

        Really, haste for us should work with our dots instead of rune regen. Our resources and lack of large cost for large damage abilities really dosn’t lend itself to such a system. Same can be said for Unholy Presence and perhaps that should do the same as well.

      • Sag says:

        Why not just change the value for haste? Currently I think 26 haste rating is like 1% haste. Change that to be more in line with crit, or higher think 45-60 haste rating = 1% haste. Making the stat itself more expensive (esp in comparison to mastery) would make it more difficult to stack until maybe the end of the expansion. One assumes blizzard has a better handle on how gearing will escalate (ilvl increases) per tier.

      • Seamus says:


        I prefer having a bit of down time in blood, for situational awareness. I love, that is I FREAKING LOVE, blood as it currently is.

        After getting on the PTR it quickly became apparent that folks are dramatically over-stating the dead-time due to the pace of the rune refresh. For folks that haven’t got on the PTR, we are talking a second or two with nothing to do, every once in a while. Blood requires a bit of pacing that is all, there is plenty to do. Some folks just prefer button mashing non stop.

        You can get stuck in a couple situations. For me it was never due to runes being on CD, but DnD being on CD. 30 seconds is forever in Wrath Heroics. But that wouldn’t be a problem if folks just paced the dungeon a little bit. We’re talking about adding 3 to 5 mins max to an entire run.

      • Insolence says:

        Sorry to rain in on your parade mate but PTR isn’t Beta. In Beta once you gain a couple of levels start replacing Gear etc. your Avoidance really, really drops and Downtime becomes much bigger than it is now. PTRs can’t be compared to Beta.

      • Gosox says:

        Mastery would also be similar to ArP atleast for a frost DK would it not. At what point would you have so much increased frost damage that Howling blast or even a Icy Touch just does more damage then obliterate. This would complicate things since you need to Obliterate to get more Rime procs but if you’re already gcd caped due to haste or RE procs Rime procs would be worthless. So the rotation could look something like Outbreak, HBx2 Necrotic Strikex2 BSx2 RP Dump.

        The frost mastery seems to ensure that eventually obliterate will be less important or not important.

      • Seamus says:

        Sorry Insolence there are plenty of videos on tanking in Cata. It’s exactly what I’m experiencing.

      • Insolence says:

        Oh my gods can it possibly be? Oh yes. Shadowform! HASTE! WOW. Still doesn’t count.

  5. Alrenous says:

    In practice a lot of the BT charges get wasted because the mob dies and they fade before you can get to a new one. Execute and Bloodsurge slams are good ways to find a mob dead if BT itself doesn’t kill it. The healing is really unimpressive.

    As I said, haven’t warriored recently, but it’s annoying enough that I still end up bitching about it.

  6. Seamus says:

    The change to RE is nice for me, I didn’t really bother tracking it. However, I find it interesting to note that it reduces the cool down of our runes, as the point of the rune revamp was specifically to make them longer and give us some breathing space.

    The only problem I have with the class on live is the lack of breathing space.

    Testing on the PTR, not beta where mobs hit much harder, I was very excited to find the class very fun. All three specs.

    I tried Frost first as I’ve never played frost and found it very interesting, the new KM is kind of a wrench in the works but I’m sure it’ll be ‘math’d’ out what the best usage will be. For now I Oblit if its available, FS otherwise. The couple of times I accidentally hit IT, due to timing, IT hit pretty hard. Overall Frost hits hard, real hard. It was ok in pvp, BG queues were instant, Hungering Cold was useful especially in WSG. Unholy definitely has many advantages over Frost in pvp though.

    Blood is freaking awesome. I tanked several heroics and they were all trivial compared to tanking on live. The one issue I had was the cool down on DnD. Everyone is still in the ’round it up and kill it all mode’ and with DnD’s cooldown that is not really possible. I always had the runes I needed, just need to pace their usage, to re-establish aggro against dps doing 10k+. The problem was that even though I had the runes I couldn’t fire off a DnD because it was on CD. (This problem can be easily avoided on live by, omgz, slowing down.) Of all the specs Blood benefits the most from new rune revamp, compared to live I actually have a bit of breathing space and have better situational awareness. RE works fine as my runes are either blood or death runes since I basically rotate HS and DS. BTW I tanked in by dps gear since def is gone as a stat, the healer said it was ez-mode.

    Blood is freaking awesome solo. I killed Chill non stop 5 times with no army, no pets, and full health. Frost and Unholy were a bit more challenging but the tweaked DS was sufficient. The key to easy Chill kills is to kill the adds as soon as they drop down. In Blood spec it didn’t matter, you’d have to work hard to not kill Chill with full health. For those of you, like me, who like to solo old raids I expect it just got easier.

    Unholy, what can be said that hasn’t already. Incredibly fun spec and very much in theme with the class.

    Overall I think they’ve done a great job giving the 3 specs different play styles that should accommodate various tastes. As much as I like Unholy, I really enjoyed Frost. Wish we could have 3 specs, I’d spec all three: Frost for dps and Unholy for pvp.

    Thing I wish could be improved? Too many damn buttons. I really wish they would clean up some of our abilities.

    • Insolence says:

      You Tanked in DPS Gear…. No wonder you had no Rune issues. Level 80 DPS Epics from ICC etc give you like 8-10% Haste which bomb-increases Rune Regeneration time, drop that and you’ll face the issues everyone else is already facing.

      • Seamus says:

        You give me too much credit, I’m not in ICC gear. I’m primarily in 232/245 badge gear and a few pieces of 251. My trinkets are iLevel 200, granted Greatness is way under-valued. And yes I was holding aggro, easily, over folks with T10 gear doing literally 10k dps. Let me put it this way, the gear pre-mades get is better then what I have. (I took a break after getting to the 4th boss in ICC10 but I’ve been tanking heroics in live for over a month now.)

        I’m not the only one experiencing this, several beta testers report the same, they’re the ones I took a clue from to approach tanking on the PTR, and are quite happy. BTW if things are so bad how is it that DK’s are successfully tanking dungeons? They most definitely are.

        I’m just trying to provide a counter-point to all the doom and gloom posts. The class is fine, its incredibly fun and effective. Blizzard cannot make everyone happy with the changes they’ve implemented, that’s a fact of life.

      • Insolence says:

        Doesn’t matter if you’re in ICC Gear or ToTC Gear. You get loads of Haste from Level 80 Epics, its just how they are. I’m not surprised you were holding Threat, actually I’d have been surprised if you hadn’t. Rune Regeneration Speed wouldn’t be as fast as the one Unholy and Frost DPS get but it would still be a lot more than what it should be.

        Also, as I already said – It takes a bit for Avoidance to settle down. Once you reach 82ish and start replacing Gear your Avoidance begins to drop. By the time you hit 85 you start having large holes in your Rotation, and using Death Coil to fill them in is bad design, if it doesn’t proc Runic Empowerment its the same as wasting a GCD and 40 RP for all the Threat you’ll ever get from it.

        Blood Tanking is not “fine.”

      • Griefpb says:

        I think you guys are also forgetting that as you gain level your percentage required for each stat increases.

        So at 82, it takes much more haste rating to gain 1% haste then at 80.

  7. Futhark says:

    I too have flirted with the idea to “balance Frost around a single disease (FF) which you then maintain with Rime procs”. It’s the old 3.1 style that I loved so much. I doubt they would ever change Obliterate to make this viable though, unless it was with a really cool glyph.

  8. Rythian says:

    I’m just praying they fix 2H Frost to feel as fun as it did back in 3.1, or 3.2, which ever was the one where Frost Strike was undodgable and the sigil made it do tons of damage.

  9. PennyRush says:

    What level gear are you using to sim DW Unholy vs 2H?

    Unless my spreadsheet is bugged (which is possible), I have 2H beating DW by a very tiny margin (~2%) in 333 gear. This is after the new talent for Unholy.

  10. Skaarrj says:

    Frost Suffers from 2 problems right now.

    Howling Blast and Rime.

    Why do we have a 31 point AOE talent in our tree? And why does Rime promote a AoE spell to be utilized in a single target rotation? That combined with our Howling Blast Glyph is going to see frost getting nerfed if this goes live. I don’t want a AoE 31 point talent in an expansion that de-emphasizes AOE’s when compared to WOTLK.

    Rime should do something else.

  11. It’s also worth noting that GC just did a rather long post about talents that includes more on what we’re calling the mandatory vs PVP vs utility talents. He used UH DK’s as an example. I don’t get from GC’s response that Blizz sees the PVP-only talents in early UH as a problem, which I think might impact what Frost and Blood can expect to see change in their early tiers (if anything changes, that is).

    It’s an interesting read.

    • Sag says:

      I don’t have a problem with the pvp talents there. What I have a problem with is desecration and resilient infection being in the same tier. I think it may be best for switch descration and runic corruption. Frost (most likely) is not going to wait runic corruption, and Blood is probably going to want runic empowerment for more rune resources as opposed to more DC (which isn’t that great for them as I understand it). This way unholy can free up a talent point or two later on and grabbing something like 3/3 magic supression or maybe even AMZ is possible. A pvp build wouldn’t have those points available because they would want desecration. As much as many don’t like the rogue trees, I do like that at least the DPS and utility talents are mixed within the tree itself whereas unholy has them all up front.

      • I agree that the utility talents need to be moved around so all the PVP isn’t at the top where you basically choose from the talents which one will NOT be the most useless. I guess when GC kept telling us how we were going to be choosing from “Not all dps, there’ll be some utility/fun talents to pick,” I was expecting talents that were actually fun and/or utility I’d want to have. Y’know, like a warrior choosing between Blood Craze and Rude Interruption. A rogue choosing between Improved Recuperate and Improved Kick. The feral who chooses between Feral Swiftness and Nuturing Instinct. The Ret who chooses between Rebuke and Repentence and Selfless Healer.

        Those talents all help with PVE in big ways. In fact, I deliberately chose several healing ones to emphasize how big a thing talenting into healing is for every melee dps except dk’s. Don’t get hung up the specific talents, etc, but focus on the fact that these talents offer utility that is fun, useful to PVE, and does not involve deciding which is the least likely to annoy and the most likely to find some rare use.

        DK’s are way behind here. Don’t get me wrong. I love the arms coming out of the ground graphic of Desecration, I love the name Desecration, but I hate the fact that it slows targets that I won’t always (or even often) want slowed plus it’ll hide on-ground textures that people will NEED to see to get out of. Making it unreliable and useless for raiding. That leaves our “utility/fun choice” to just Resilient Infection (that will never be useful in raiding/PVE) or Unholy Command, which will never find use by any raid worth its salt except in fight built for its use. The tank should never need a DPS to yank a mob back to him or even slow a mob for him.

        If you look at warriors or rogues or ferals or rets, you have talents that enhance survivability or improve quality of life. If you look at the UH early tier (the one that’s clearly the most worked on), what you have are PVP talents that have no place in PVE. And you have to pick one of them to put a point in because, hey, that’s all there is. “Find your fun somewhere in that,” Blizz seems to say.

        The rest of the tree is all DPS. Meanwhile, Frost has some useful utility, but it’s buried beneath useless utility. That is, I’d like to have a faster mount, but I’d have to take 5 points just to get to that tier. I might like free Mind Freezes, but again, 5 points to get there. That might not be bad if I wasn’t giving up Blood Caked Blade, which is absolutely more than enough DPS to justify every point you place in Blood (8). If you want BCB to stay, putting it in the first tier would mean people could at least get that, then hop over to Frost to choose between DW (useless for every spec except Frost, which begs the question why it’s in the first two tiers), more RP when we don’t have the GCD’s to spend it, or longer range on an AOE only Frost has or an ability that UH will never use.

        Why do I keep seeing what seems not as obvious to Blizz? All the utility they think DK’s have is of no use to PVE dk’s. Where’s the “fun” in taking a talent that has no benefit to you? I don’t want more dps, but I do want the choice between PVP talents, survivability talents that work for PVP or PVE, and the occasional PVE utility talent (like if you took Endless Winter, you kept it giving a free Mind Freeze, but added that some other type of utility like making it a play off of Rude Interruption, but having it, “Successfully interrupting an enemy spell gives your next five auto-attacks a life-steal that heals you for 1% for each hit. Lasts 10 seconds.”)

        Something interesting, something that plays into the class’s core mechanics, and something that fills one of the gaping holes left by the quickie talent conversion to the 31 point system that’s left the DK trees looking sad for months now.

        Then I could blah blah blah Virulence blah blah or blah blah blaaaah Night of the Dead blah, but I’ve done that a lot already. Seems obvious there are gaps. Curious to see the next build.

      • Sag says:

        Really, I love the name of desecration. I wish it would do something other than slow people down, like maybe the old one for a damage increase if in the area. The ground effect has issues I am told, but I find the DnD one changes/covers more than desecration. Maybe because I have a pvp build and I am used to seeing it EVERYWHERE (seriously like had half the platform in the Dal arena covered in that crap). I miss the old Endless Winter that gave Str as well as the free mind freezes. Granted what most classes seem to have gotten are X% dps increase after a successful interruption, which would be nice as well since (to me) it seems like runic power is more difficult to generate than rage. Admittedly this is from a warth mindset and not a cat beta mindset.

        Maybe I am just bad, but I find that I DG a lot in dungeons. Probably more than a DPS should, but I generally have pvp gear on if I am not tanking so, whatever I can take hits. If it is a two caster pull and the tank doesn’t want to charge in, or if for some reason a caster broke off to run to a healer/clothie, or if (God forbid!) someone actually CCed a mob and the CC broke. I also sometimes use it just to interrupt casting if I am a step or two away from that mob. Strangulate takes resources and MF I need to be close for so… Yeah… then again I love the spell, it’s sad not to use it more.

    • Jonneh says:

      The general theme behind the post, as far as I can gather is;

      “Giving up 1% dps for some utility is a valid design choice”

      In what world can that be true? Seriously? Sure, 1% to one person might not be significant compared to total raid dps.. but all 15 of you giving up 1% for utility? Thats a 15% drop in raid dps.

      “How many attempts can you name in your lifetime as a WoW player where your doing 1% more dps would have made the difference between success and failure? And how many of those attempts could you have gotten 10% more dps if you had just totally nailed your rotations etc. on those fights instead of worrying about a theoretical 1% dps gain from a different talent?”

      As I say above, it all of you are doing it.. its not 1% its 15%! Are you seriously saying that you balance bosses and encounters in such a way that the 15% dps loss is never going to make a difference? Cause thats the argument made! Obviously if you all fail your rotation, do 5% less dps each.. thats a wipe most likely on a progress boss. Ofc it is. But what makes that more significant than the 15% you’re giving up by design? Thats not down to chance, its a certainty. Your raid will dps 15% less effectively, even if it plays perfectly. Thats a larger number than I am comfortable with.

      “If it’s a talent that provides a 10% dps increase or offers an ability you’ll use constantly, fine. It’s hard to argue that won’t benefit most players. But when I see players obsess over talents that provide a theoretical 1% dps increase that is vastly overshadowed by the noise of their own performance, I shake my head a bit. Want to see what I mean? Compare a parse of yours on the same boss from week to week. You’ll probably see a dps variance of 5-10% or more. That’s the role of your skill, latency, bad luck, lacking the perfect raid comp or whatever else. Worrying about that 1% dps talent was a rounding error. Let’s not forget that what may be 1% on one boss probably is not on another.

      How well you’re playing, Luck/RNG and lag, sure. Those are variables we cant control (in most cases). Speccing that 1% we can control though, so why would we give it up? Thats like saying “Oh I’ll pay 1% less attension every raid so i can watch tv or read a book, its only 1%”. Well no its not. Its a chance you might contribute to delaying, frustrating and failing your raid. A 1% greater chance.

      In a game of numbers you can’t say that 1% doesn’t matter too much. Whats the difference? Is there some magical cut off where suddenly the number doesn’t matter anymore? 4%? 6%?

      How does “players play better and worse all the time” justify the argument? Sure. People who play better and perform better should progress faster. They always will! But they do so by min/maxing every ability, every cooldown. Timings, performances and even the time they put into the game all maximised. Are you telling me these players would give up 15% raid dps to have “cool abilities”?

      No they would not. Unless it provides tangable benefits, they would all be optimised to do their job.

      Finally, on encounter balancing.. I find it hard to believe that the endgame hardmode encounters are balanced in such a way that 15% would not make a difference. End bosses are so well tuned usually, and looking at the likes of LK HC and Yogg+0 when they were challenging, even the most hardcore guilds struggled to down them. LK HC didnt go down until ICC 5% buff right?

      So I guess 1% doesnt matter, but 5% does? Good to know!

      • Sidh says:

        “but all 15 of you giving up 1% for utility? Thats a 15% drop in raid dps.”

        You are wrong. 1% dps drop for one person is 1% dps drop. 1% dps drop for every person in 15man raid is 1% dps drop for the entire raid. And to be complete, 1% dps drop for one person in 15man raid is about 0.07% dps drop for the entire raid.

      • Noin says:

        Uh yeah, a 1% DPS loss to your person does not correlate to a 1% drop in raid DPS. That’s really shallow math.

        10-man raid. 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 DPS. Each DPS does 10,000 DPS. Total DPS = 50,000.

        Now, A drops 1% in DPS for a utility talent. He does 9900 DPS. Total DPS = 49,900. Total DPS has dropped by 0.2%.

        If everyone drops by 1%, each person does 9900 DPS. Total DPS = 49500. Total DPS has dropped by 1%.


        It’s even less for a 25-man raid.

        Average 25 man raid comp: let’s say….15 DPS on average. Each DPS does 10,000. Total DPS = 150,000.

        DPS A drops 1% to 9900. Total DPS is now 149,900 and has dropped by 0.07%.

      • Jonneh says:

        You guys kinda quick to jump on the shallow math here but it wasnt really intended to be a math focused sentiment i was expressing. Perhaps I didn’t word it well enough, I am really tired at the moment. The 15% number is really just the difference between boss dieing and boss not dieing, including player inefficiency or whatever. Reading back I do think I could have phrased it better to get my point across, but then if I wanted to use a math example I probably would have done the pretty simple sums myself. Anyway.

        Even so – given your example, thats a 500 dps drop in raid dps. Over a 5 min fight thats 500x60x5 150k hp that the boss still has. With the 9500 dps you have thats 15 seconds slower you’ve been (give or take). It all adds up, and goes up the longer the fight goes on. Now imagine LK HC, before ICC buff. Nobody killed it, it was tuned so harshly.. that people just couldn’t get the boss down. Great for blizzard, they tune endgame encounters really well pretty much all the time without PTR testing.

        GCs point is that those other factors can make more of a difference. My point is, those other factors can’t be controlled by speccing your talents better. Where as speccing the 1% talent is totally in your permanent control, so why would any endgame players make the wrong choice? It IS the wrong choice, no matter how you slice it.

        Even off LK numbers, you have to imagine the add not dieing in time, the enrage coming.. and you’ve given up clear and tangable dps benefit for the intangable benefit of what..?

        So far as unholy is concerned its the benefit of –

        a) 50% slow at your feet pretty much permanently
        b) runes back when your diseases get dispelled
        c) ~100k (?) magic damage to the melee prevented (at the additional dps loss of another SS)

        blah blah

        Total guess on the AMZ there but you get the picture. Is that really a choice that any of you would make? Or would you have the 1% extra damage.

        They talk all the time about a ‘Good’ player being taken because he’s good. I think a good player is a good player at taking the talents he needs to do his job and fulfil his role. Its been seen time and time again that when you can do something crazy or strange for that “magic 1%” that GC mocks so much – good players will do it! Of course they will! Who wouldn’t?

        I guess the overall point I’m trying to make is, I don’t think anyone will ever take utility over DPS blindly because its “cool”. Certainly not for anything as dire as Unholy has to pick from. If AMZ was needed for something, you’d just respec for that fight and then go back to your real DPS spec.

        I dont think you can seperate human nature from players here. If you want to DPS (or tank/heal even) you want to do it to the best of your capability. Giving up 1%, 2%, 5% or whatever % of that for a totally intangable and “nice to have” benefit just wont cut it endgame.

        They should have just gone with the better design choice, in my opinion, making the DPS potential of each tree 25-28 points and making people spec those spare points up to 31 in utility before letting them branch out into another tree to pickup a the minor DPS increases there. To my mind, that’d bring to life the whole idea which we were told was cookie cutter builds with “put those points wherever you want” at the end.

        That is what he said way back when. There wasn’t this attack against people who min/max, there was just the expression of the intent to give us 3-5 points we could put where we want without having to feel we needed to use them on more DPS talents. The only way to do that is to make it so we cant spend them on more DPS talents!

        Anyway, labouring my point enough now I think.

      • Sidh says:

        “Even so – given your example, thats a 500 dps drop in raid dps. Over a 5 min fight thats 500x60x5 150k hp that the boss still has. With the 9500 dps you have thats 15 seconds slower you’ve been (give or take).”

        Wrong. This is only a 3 seconds slower since your raid dps is 49500, not 9500 (where did you get that number from?).

      • Jonneh says:

        kinda bored with this math nazi’ing

        Did I not say that my point is alot more general, and alot less figures?

        Slower/less is slower/less.

        Tangable benefit > situational skill

        If you wanna respond to the points im making, then do so. If you’re just gonna be a math nazi then go back to EJ imo!

      • Sidh says:

        First of all, you are backing up your point with wrong numbers. Thats what was pointed out.

        Second, all it comes down to is the type of encounters you will face and the tradeoffs you will have to make. It all depends on one simple fact – is there any benefit in specing something beyond dps or not?

        Imagine content tier where magical raid damage is very very common (read – every boss has raid-wide magical damage aura). Imagine Cata heal/mana model. Now think whats better – 1% dps increase or 10% passive magic resistance (numbers are out of thin air, just as an example)?

        As you can see, it all comes down to the environment you are in.

        Now Im not saying current ‘utility’ talents are that good. Some are just terrible for PvE. Some are ok. But dont dismiss everything right away just because you think 1% dps > anything that is not dps.

      • Sag says:

        Well, of all of the utility that UH has AMZ is actually the one I would want to bring to a raid… RI, Imp DG, Des, all kind of crappy compared to AMZ… Now the problem I have with the new magic supression is that currently UH takes about 6% less spell damage + better AMS. I’d like the 6% less spell damage taken as well, for 3 talent points, you bet I would like that back, hell even 1%. I understand that was a tanking portion of the tree, but I didn’t see that moved over to blood either, unless it falls under covered by the new blood presence. Either way, it’s one of the things I really miss while not in unholy. I’m actually upset that of all of the utility talents the placement of AMZ means I will not take it because I would gimp myself on DPS. If a few things were switched around I’d definitely take it, maybe even at a DPS loss if healers are going to be extremely taxed. Mind you dead dps = 0 dps.

      • Noin says:


        If you make a post purporting glaringly fallacious math, people are going to call you out. It’s nothing personal; it’s just the truth. 😉

        The point is that a 1% personal DPS loss is overblown by many, many people. The real “math nazi’ing” happens in the community, where people simply aren’t allowed to deviate even slightly from the current community consensus. If you do, you’re wrong, and therefore a bad player. That’s the mantra throughout the raiding community, not just really high-end guilds.

        It’s a maddeningly capricious mentality and I can see why GC doesn’t like it. People are still going to try to min/max everything, but, just like raid utility, those individual choices shouldn’t matter so much. That’s one of the reasons they’re trying to bake more of your damage into your tree choice, rather than your talent choice.

  12. Skaarrj says:

    Nothing is really new there. This is information i already knew.

  13. Nineswords says:

    Sorry if I’ve missed this Consider, but I’d be interested to know what your take on the default UI is like in the beta, and whether or not us DKs will be having to still install 3rd party add ons.

    Best wishes,


    • Jonneh says:

      To be honest, can you imagine life with 0 addons?

      I don’t think we’ll ever be there really.

      Class specific stuff, rune display is still bad and debuff tracking is still terrible (correct me if im wrong here).

      Nothing said about raid frames that I can recall, but if they’re still as they are on live then they’re pretty much useless as a healer compared to what you can have with something like sraidframes.

      • Consider says:

        The default raid frames on beta are quite improved, actually. They’re like a less customizable and stylish version of Grid, to an extent, but a huge improvement (in my opinion) over the live ones. The default UI is never going to be as endless and as customizable as addons, for obvious reasons, but this (much like the built in powerauras) is an area where Blizzard has progressed quite a bit, and you can live without the addon version without being terribly crippled.

    • PennyRush says:

      This game is impossible to play without addons.

      • Consider says:

        That’s certainly not true. It’s very difficult to play optimally, perhaps, but nothing more. Not impossible to do anything without addons, just not nearly as easy and, in some situations, unacceptably hindering to go with the default.

    • Consider says:

      The default UI is decent enough in general, but the rune display is horribly lacking. A rune mod is still a must, in my opinion, to perform optimally as a DK (and by optimally, I don’t mean just ekeing out an extra couple points of dps, but a noticeable gain). Most other things, although very convenient, I can live without if I must, but a rune mod? Not if performance matters.

      I’m currently using Doc’s Debuf Runes – – on the beta, and loving it. Quite perfect, yet unintrusive and lightweight. Aside from that, the only addons I have installed there are recount (since its a bother to parse stuff when I want to see something immediately) and omnicc (although I could easily do without). When things go live, I’m sure I’ll sharpen it up with a lot of my addons from live – bartender, pitbull, etc – but most of those are cosmetic and not really necessary to optimal play (aside from DXE, perhaps, when it comes time for raiding).

  14. Raxx says:

    Tier 2 talents are still mainly poor fillers, but otherwise UH is looking good 😀

  15. Mysiana says:

    Currently on the PTR I am only running with recount, omen (mainly to gauge how threat is now relative to me tanking) and a rune mod. The only thing I miss is the ability to rearrange my bars to look like my G13 gamepad and naga mouse (for some reason I have to have the visualization to use them properly >_<).

    The new raid UI is pretty amazing and fairly customizable, actually. You can do a "role check" like they do for random dungeons – each player gets an icon on their bar to indicate their role. When you assign "main tanks" it separates the tanks from the rest of the raid and places their target underneath them – very useful for assisting. Also, as far as I can tell, only debuffs that you can cure show up on the raid frames – they won't be cluttered with a million icons that you have to sort through.

    You can also set your personal buffs to consolidate, making it easier to notice important debuffs on yourself. All-in-all, a giant leap forward for the vanilla UI.

    • Sidh says:

      I moved every single addon I use on live to beta – works pretty much flawlessly. But to be realistic, most of the addons are far from mandatory to play this game, except rune/rp addon (default rune UI is just terrible). Now even Grid is not THAT ‘must have’.

      • Mysiana says:

        Really? I tried to port mine over but I got so many errors that the game shut them down.

      • Sidh says:

        Yep. IceHud, Bartender4, Grid, DKM, Sun Viewport – thats some of those I use, all work perfectly. Didn’t try DXE since I didnt try any instances.

      • Insolence says:

        I dumped all my Addons, the amount of Lag they were causing made my Client even more unstable than it already was (EU Player – horrible connection, usually 10 FPS and 500 Latency >.<)

        Not to mention there was some kind of bug on an addon that caused insane lag each time I went into combat.

    • Sag says:

      My only concern about only having debuffs I can cure is that sometimes I just have to heal through debuffs. Take Moroes’ garrote for example. As I recall the standard UI didn’t tell me who had garrote (ie no huge message going SAG HAS BEEN GARROTED), so seeing that is just as important as knowing if I can cure it or not. Of course vent helped that issue, but it would be nice to know when that wore off on party bars instead of having to change my target.

      • Mysiana says:

        I am not 100% positive on the curable debuffs – I was more focused on trying to get into a raid on my DK tank than my priest. I just remember a few showing up but that it wasn’t crowded. I could totally be wrong – but I will check later today when I get home.

  16. Grave says:

    Every time the GCD problem comes up, GC writes it off as a haste problem, when we have proven that it is still bad at 85 without haste!

    • Korell says:

      Yeah its really rather frustrating he doesn’t seem to be seeing the same problem that consider’s math has proven.

      • Consider says:

        It’s not just my math. Anyone can work the numbers and see it. Even Kahorie’s sim shows it. GC’s post was great and all… up until that point. GCD issues are not a matter of haste, and to continue to claim otherwise despite all the evidence and proof (anecdotal and objective) is just silly. It’s the equivalent of covering your ears with your hands and repeating the world is flat over and over, despite other people yelling to you why that’s not the case.

      • Jonneh says:

        Yea I guess the message didn’t get through.

        Someone needs to make a youtube video or something. I mean 40% haste? Even at level 80%? I really don’t think thats true. Is he talking about just from gear cause I’m in pretty much BiS (pre ruby sanctum) and I have 8%.

        Who the hell has 40% haste when they transfer?

        Besides that, just looking at the rotation on paper is enough to show you its capped out. I don’t get it.

        I’m also disturbed by the whole “if you dont want to be GCD capped, dont get haste” comment. I mean, come on. A stat that grants resources and passively increases dps? And you expect us to just stay away from it so we’re not GCD capped.

        I worry about the sheer stupidity after 6 years of doing this, really. As if players aren’t going to min/max like they always do. Hasn’t he always said if you let players break the system, they will? Ofc we willl. If its more dps, whats the reason not to?

        This is all just so irritating.

      • Korell says:

        Yeah fair point Consider.

        Yeah i think it might be time for that 0% haste youtube video you were talking about a while back.

      • Roth says:

        I dont have anywhere near 40%. I think hes making the assumption that all ArP was converted to haste or something. In most cases, my ArP was converted to crit.

        And even my crit is only 36%.

  17. Roth says:

    The more ppl continue to complain about GCD issues, the higher the likelihood that theyll take a look at the class. The math cant be denied. Theyll see it eventually…even if that means 4.1.

    • Roth says:

      Also, is it just me or did GC basically create his own strawman scenario? Weak response to a legit argument (GCD issues).

    • Jonneh says:

      Whats the point though? I mean, even if he does get it fixed.. aren’t we now basically being told that stacking haste isn’t going to be discouraged?

      “Now, if you’re one of those players who just hates gaps, then go ahead and stack a bunch of haste. You’ll have to go out of your way to do that though, and sacrifice some other stats to get there. For the DK that balances gear out, you shouldn’t be GCD locked for long periods of time. “

      As things stand at the moment, can anyone really imagine that haste isn’t just going to be so powerful that we stack it until we’re GCD capped anyway? Double passive DPS increase. More runes, more RP, more white swings.

      • Roth says:

        Better than the alternative: haste possibly being weaker than every other stat.

      • Jonneh says:

        Just makes a mockery of pretty much everything we were told was gonna happen really, and running out of time to fix it.

      • Jonneh says:

        Another post up now as well, aparently when we have a long string of procs its “just good luck with procs”

        Someone _PLEASE_ make a video, while we have his attention 😦

  18. Insolence says:

    Crabby: In Cataclysm, you shouldn’t let Runic Empowerment change up what ability you were planning on hitting next, at least for the most part.

    Me: /Facepalm. That’s exactly what it does for Blood when we’re forced to Death-Coil-Spam because we’re out of Runes and RSs…. Pray for RE to use Runes!

    Read the latest BS on Runic Empowerment by our very own lovely Crab right here;

  19. Roth says:

    The problem with GC is inherent in his last post.

    ***Here is a grossly simplified rotation on Live:


    Here is a rotation in Cataclysm:


    The last part is the issue. Our rotation on beta is the same as live = ABABABAB etc.

    Big problem: thats not a cataclysm rotation.

    • Roth says:

      Sorry, meant to say “The big problem is, his view of our rotation is way off.”

      • What else can people do but what has been done? He clearly has read the threads talking about it, seen that a lot of people are talking about it, but he doesn’t agree. He says the team doesn’t agree.

        But then they change UH presence to give 1 sec GCD’s. Perhaps he was referring to his own build when he said he didn’t see why GCD’s were still an issue?

  20. Roth says:


    * Unholy Presence now reduces the GCD on your abilities by 0.5 sec.

    Welcome our new Unholy overlords (again).

    • Noin says:

      And we come full circle. ZING!

    • Leviatharan says:

      So I guess Frost should start on their way to a pass now?
      Good. Maybe they’ll make the mastery interesting.

      • I don’t even play Frost or Blood very often and I’m baffled at the lack of change for those trees by now. Are those trees seriously not in need of some early tier updates? Wow.

        Doesn’t it seem odd that he argues on one hand that dk’s are all exaggerating the issue with the GCD’s (he says because we have too much haste and are just too ignorant to know it despite his having said it three times now and our responded to THAT answer three times now), but on the other we have a new patch that–surprise, surprise–gives UH presence its reduced GCD again?

        Isn’t the, “Nothing’s wrong with the GCD’s for Unholy or any other DK, you have plenty of time between GCD’s,” message a little bit different from the, “Oh, here’s your smaller GCD’s back so you won’t suffer from GCDridlock” message?

        Just seems odd to me. Well. At least we know most of the dk’s saying GCD issues are a problem IS being heard by them. They just don’t agree at all that there’s an issue.

        Kinda reminds me of the whole, “Fun/Utility ability vs dps ability” issue. We say having to put one point into either Desecration, Resilient Infection, or Unholy Command is not fun. Blizzard thinks that having truly (not figuratively) useless PVP talents for a PVE build is fun. Many DK’s do not. Blizzard thinks every PVE DK having to go three points into UH to get Virulence and Epidemic is fun. Many DK’s do not. Blizzard thinks every PVE UH DK going 8 points into Blood subspec is fun. Many DK’s do not.

        At this point, I don’t think they’re going to acknowledge there’s a problem. But at least they’re trying out giving back the reduced GCD. I suspect that will only hold the problem at bay for a while, but hey… it’s a while, right? That’s assuming after they get done tuning Unholy spec that using Unholy Presence is a gain over Frost Presence.

    • QXQ says:

      If this is a legit change (I’ll believe it when I see it in action), then I think this is a valid solution. Frost Presence if you’re not overflowing with resources. Unholy if you are. With the change to presences to not cost runes, switching from Frost to Unholy on the fly when needed (obvious example: Bloodlust/Heroism) isn’t so painful. At least it’s something (unless it’s a mistake).

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