Simulating – What’s Where

The single most common question in regard to 4.0.1 also happens to be one of the sillest: “What spec does the most dps?” or some variation there of.

Consider this a simple stab at answering it.

I ran 100 hours of 5 minute fights. Each spec was in an optimized BiS set, reforged, gemmed, and enchanted as appropriate. The Frost sims were done as their best race, Worgen, with Unholy as theirs; Orc. Each were using an AP flask, str food, and speed pots. The Unholy sims assumed 100 RP/45 seconds from AMS usage. The ICC buff was, of course, turned off, although it would be easy to multiply the final number by 1.3 if you wished to factor it in. So forth.

The XMLs of each set up are linked in the spec/weapon name, so you can confirm the results (and just test stuff in general) yourself.

With that said, you’ll see things are quite similar across the specs… with the notable exception of Unholy DW!





Simply put: Frost DW > Unholy 2H > Frost 2H >>>>> Unholy DW.  The difference between the first three is incredibly minor; less than 200 dps variation. That’s not even 2% of your total damage! Honestly, in actual play, that gap (which is already laughably small) is likely to evaporate completely between factors such as 2H specs having increased runspeed, Unholy being able to squeeze out a bit more RP from AMS, simple RNG, varying fight durations, and so forth. The specs are more equal than they’ve ever been and as equal as they’re likely to ever get.

If some wonder why their PTR experience might not appear to match up with the reality of this math, there’s a variety of reasons for that: bugs, such as Obliterate’s interaction with Threat of Thassarian, and simple unoptimized gameplay; gems, reforging, and gear choices not yet being redone on top of little testing being performed in actual 25m raids.

In ICC, Unholy is likely to pull ahead when you consider the increased gargoyle uptime of the shorter fights, the run speed bonus, the superior (although not by much these days) AoE, and so forth, but even then, you’ll barely notice it.

Choose the spec you like, and don’t worry about which is best seeing as how they’re all essentially equal… not to mention this is year old content still being done!

112 Responses to Simulating – What’s Where

  1. Mikami says:

    So, in essence, DW unholy is dead for the one who wants to optimize their gameplay.

    • Consider says:

      Yes. It’s not even worth addressing for the present; it’s possible it could scale well enough to make a comeback in t12 or t13, but who knows – not relevant to 4.0.1/T11!

    • Conwolv says:

      It would seem so. And I’m glad to see it go. Unholy was never meant to DW in the first place and trying to shoehorn it into that spec only hurts the DW Frost players in the long run.

    • Zao says:

      Sigh…tell that to the people on MMOC. Sometimes I really wish rules would allow us to ban for stupidity.

  2. Rebellion says:

    The 2H specs asume one uses Lo…Shadowmourne, right ?
    How big is the diffrence by using Glorenzelg instead of shadowmourne ?

    • Consider says:

      Almost exactly a 1k dps loss for Unholy. Closer to 900 for Frost.

      • Rebellion says:

        Tbh dw unholy does not look that far behind if you look at it from that angle ;).

      • Nickoli says:

        Are those DW Frost numbers with the axes off of H.LK? – I am guessing so but wanted to confirm –

      • Consider says:


        I’ll probably do a follow-up post of a sort later this evening. Due to certain bugs which somehow made it off PTR and onto live, there’s really no question that Unholy is the clear indisputable winner (assuming, of course, DW and 2H weapons aren’t drastically different in ilvl). Hopefully that stuff will be fixed soon, though.

  3. Darazdeblak says:

    Hi Consider,

    I was able to reach 14295 dps with the following configuration for a Frost 2H build.

    Str Food/AP Flask
    Speed potions

    Unholy Presence
    This template et glyphe :
    This Priority :

    Equipment specificities
    Gloves : Fleshrending gauntlets
    Finger : Skeleton circle / Ashen band of Endless Might

    Crit to Hit : On Winding Sheet
    Crit to Exp : On Apocalypse’s Advance
    Crit to mast : On everything else

    yellow slots :10 haste 10 str
    blue slots : 10 hti 10 str
    red slots : 20 str
    Nothing else (except 34 str for jewelcrafting)

    But I’m coming accross weird behaviour in Kahorie sims, such as same results with every race. So I don’t know if the simulator is already enough stable to rely upon theses results.

    • Consider says:

      From testing it, the gain you’re experiencing is almost solely from engineering (which is unquestionably superior, I just was being quick on time and grabbed enchanting for the sim) and one point from epidemic to BA (which falls in the “my bad!” category). The first would affect any of the specs equally, and the second would do so for DW Frost as well. The gear differences you propose just seem to slightly hurt, not help.

      Hardly changes things when all is considered!

      • Darazdeblak says:

        The xml priorities I have used have not passed the comment validation. Here they are.


        They may have an impact aswell. Don’t know which one you’ve used.

        Shame that we can not prioritize for the moment the use of certain skills when couple of runes are up (2 blood or 2 death runes).

  4. Grave says:

    Question. The priorities and presences hold true because they optimize resource use. Do these change when haste exceeds levels that can be managed, ie, during blood lust. For instance, these sims do not account for whether or not DW frost would want to switch to unholy presence for bloodlust and having X haste on gear already. I do not know if such would be a dps increase without the proper tools to test it. Hmmmm, I guess i could run a 45 second fight for DW frost on both presences which would assume 100% lust time? Still such a sim would be so short it would be impossible to get good accuracy….

    • Consider says:

      You can’t account for every little variable, unfortunately, but yes, DW would switch to UP during Heroism (and after it has dumped all available RP). It wouldn’t change things much over the course of the fight.

      • Grave says:

        It will if H saurfang lasts a minute when the patch hits : / . Lust will be the fight.

      • Consider says:

        The 2H specs gain more from lust to begin with, though, because they’re already in UP. DW has to sacrifice to make that gain. If the shorter duration favors either playstyle, it would be those running in UP inherently over FP.

        Ignoring, of course, stuff like ridiculous PoF/Gargoyle/UF/etc uptimes.

  5. Branith says:

    Off topic but:

    I havnt raided in a while my guild fell apart back in early June and all ive done since then is tank PUGs but when did Razorice start going on the mainhand and Fallen Crusader on OH? I always thought proc based enchants like RotFC were suppose to go on MH and Guarenteed on hit enchants like Razorice goes on OH? Every single Frost DW DK I see has RI MH and FC OH. Sup with that?

  6. Yoyo says:

    How big is the dps difference between 2H with H Cryptmaker vs DW with 2x Bloodvenom Blades?

    • Kortic says:

      I am also interested in this question as that is the exact same weapon scenario I am in too. I would assume the DW 2x 277 BvB’s would be superior to 277 H Cryptmaker but once you factor in time away from boss and movement on encounters the 2H would probably pull ahead.

  7. OEP says:

    How much of this seeming parity is the fact that the 2h specs are using a 284 legendary and DW is using 277 epics?

    If everyone is using the same level of gear, say 264, does the parity hold up?

    It seems possible DW frost may be a lot better than the 2h specs with equivalent gear.

    • Consider says:

      DW are using 284 weapons. It’s the best possible for each spec.

      • OEP says:

        Sorry, my mistake. My question is more about scaling. Right now Shadowmourne is a 284 legendary. Does the step up from epic to legendary even at the same item level translate to a measurable increase in dps?

        To be clear, suppose unholy were using a 284 epic like Heroic Glorenzelg. I believe you said that would result in a 1k dps deficit. Doesn’t this predict that unholy will be behind frostdw/2h using equivalent gear?

        I am concerned about scaling issues. Unholy may be competitive at 80 with a legendary while frost has no access to legendaries. But what will it be like at 85 when everyone is using 359 epics? Will unholy be over 1k dps behind again?

      • Consider says:

        Yes, going from an epic to a legendary of the same ilvl does grant a specific amount of dps directly based on the increased weapon damage and stats.

        But, no, you can’t extrapolate from the fact that, sans Shadowmourne, Frost DW might beat Unholy 2H at level 80 to say that it definitely will at level 85. So much changes between now and then – particularly rating conversions jump way up, and that fact favors Unholy far more than Frost (partially because Frost has to devote itemization to expertise, which is more costly at the starting tier then it is at the current ending one, partially because Unholy gains more from strength and strength doesn’t depreciate as much, and so on). On top of that, there’s the fact that the introduction of Outbreak benefits Unholy more than Frost, the extra five talent points benefits Frost more than Unholy, and a million other facts.

        Whatever the situation at 85 may turn out to be (still too early to try and analyze, imo), it won’t have any relation to how matters currently are.

  8. Mark Miller says:

    Alright I’ve spent the last couple of hours messing around with the sim and I cannot reproduce your results. I’m very experienced at using the sim so I’m assuming its not user error, hopefully. However, I’m getting 2hand frost leading the pack at 14083k dps (8% hit, haste/str gemming), with Frost DW slight behind at 14064 dps, (5% hit, crit/str geming) and unholy trailing behind at 12338 dps (7% hit with 1% hit racial and haste gemming). All runs are in BIS gear, however, I cannot sim with the STS as it is still listed as APR, so I replaced it with DV 258. I was also interested in simming with the 271 RS10H bracers, but again they are listed as APR still.

    You provided the XMLs, but I’m clueless on how to use them on the silver light client. I assume you are doing your parse on Silver Light.

  9. Mark Miller says:

    Btw I saw your post and it honestly worth an infraction imo. However, regarding my above post, I’m interested in figuring out why I have different results for Unholy DPS compared to you. And learning how to import the XML’s into the silverlight client.

  10. Frozen says:

    You should do a post about level 80 stuff too.

  11. Goose says:

    Since reforging has open up many possibilities to re-alter stats around, my question is for the people not so fortunate to be elected to obtain Shadowmourne even with this substantial amount of time to acquire it. That said I have questions as for weapon order (not all the weapons in ICC!) would be viable with reforging taken in place. I’m thinking (please correct me if i’m wrong!) something like this;
    H Golrenzelg
    H Cryptmaker
    H Bryntroll
    H Warmace of Menethil
    Then on to regulars, which order seem to corresponding I would assume so.

    • Scuzoid says:

      I don’t get what is complicated about the new system. I don’t need to run a sim to tell you

      Legendary 284 > Epic 284 > Epic 277 without a proc when excess hit rating can be reforged off > Epic 277 with a proc that doesn’t scale as well as flat stats > Epic 271

      @ frozen. This IS the 4.0.1 sim. Not 4.0.3 (lvl 80 vs lvl 85)

  12. Anonymous says:

    I was JW did they ever put in a notification for when RE procs?

  13. Griefpb says:

    I didn’t realize ToT is bugged on the PTR, but that would explain the numbers that I am getting.

    When I test DW frost vs. 2H on the PTR, I’m getting 2H beating DW by a large margain, around 1.5-2k selff buffed.

    I think I like the 2H playstyle better though. Unfortunately, since I’ve chosen to stay DW frost over getting a Shadowmourne I only have the choice of 277 bryntoll or 277 BVB.

  14. Sholvah says:

    I see you guys are using Speed potions in your sim’s, since we will be adding Bladed armor to our spec(Unholy). would it be better to use Indestructible Potion perpull then use the Speed potion later?
    thanks you for your time

    • Consider says:

      Indestructable potions were severely nerfed in duration. No longer worth it for dps, BA or no.

      • poiso says:

        Pre-potting with speed for unholy was generally better anyway, due to timing of first gargoyle launch and potential army of the dead summon, and you’re going to have some awesome timing if you want to prepot twice, even on live.

    • Griefpb says:

      In cata the new pots have str, amazing for pre-potting

  15. poiso says:

    Unholy is bound to be better in “real life” scenarios when difference is this small, as it has significantly higher “passive PC off target” damage with higher disease damage, controllable high damage pet and gargoyle. This is simply because when something happens that peels you off the boss, diseases and pets keep on doing their damage.

    That said, thanks for the theorycraft. It certainly gives many of us a base from which to work on our gear.

    P.S. This stuff really needs at least rough error margin calculus, because in cases like these it’s quite possible that difference would fall within the margin, rendering conclusions about three “functional” specs moot.

  16. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    (This is a direct response to my comment months ago, about talents I’d like to see go when we were still in the 76 talent point stage. Prepare for lots of tongue-in-cheekness!)

    Commence first post of nostalgia:
    The realms just went down, and a little part of me is crying at the loss of the uniqueness that us DKs were in 3.3 (yes I’m excited about our new selves as well, but still!).

    Here’s a short list of what I will miss most about us:

    *Crypt Fever. You spoiled us rotten by being unique and giving us a gross advantage over Moonkins and Warlocks. Yes I admit it, I liked having you around!

    *Wandering Plague. Alas, my beloved! I will never forget 74k Sindragosa trash pulls with you!

    *Hysteria. I can’t lie and say you were always there when I needed you, but when you were…. *Gets lost in memories of glorious battles*

    *Ebon Plague. I wish they’d just leave you to be caused by diseases; this “new” form is quite silly- not like you did any passive damage by yourself!

    *Self healing. You let us solo content to absolutely silly levels- ZG being my (current) favorite example!

    *Blood DPS. If loving you is (was) wrong, I don’t want to be right!

    Take it home from here folks- see you in 4.0.1!

    • Jonneh says:

      uh, pretty much all classes can solo ZG afaik?

      • Sag says:

        Maybe it is just gearing (which is probably not that much better), but my DK solos old raids much easier than my wife’s warlock (in any warlock spec). Seriously, I pull entire rooms to see if I can. The fact that you are in plate and a majority of old world mobs to physical damage, along with ams means I can take a whole lot more abuse than she (or her tanking pet) can.

        Going into BC I can solo pretty much any heroic (prior to today’s patch, not sure how that will work out). Next up H MT, I’m pretty sure I can get to Kael, but he might be too tough. I’m not in anything above 264 gear.

      • Magdalena of Turalyon says:

        Sag pretty much nailed it- it’s not about being “able” to, but just how easy it is for said class to be able to do the soloing. Paladins aside, I challenge you to find a class that’s capable of essentially staying in the same raiding spec (so, lets say Unholy for me), replacing just one crucial skill (Death Strike is substituted for Scourge Strike) and then going to town on everything with just the occasional survivability cooldown.

      • Wingwraith says:

        I solo H MT all the time in a blood tank spec with a mix of tank and dps gear.

      • Jonneh says:

        I solo’ed MGT in naxx gear so

        Though then I had to wear tanking gear

        These days I can solo it in DPS gear, pre 4.01 anyway. Got the mount after 7 kills :p

      • Euryale says:

        I solo Magtheridon once a week just for the easy 500g. Even paladins in better gear than mine have had trouble – the combo of our self healing and our damage is amazing. I’m going to make my first 4.0.1 attempt tonight.

        Old world raid soloing is crazy fun. I soloed myself to Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros.

      • Sag says:

        Hmmm… Have you been able to solo gruuls? I’m curious.

      • Jonneh says:

        doubt it, its too hard to solo the mini bosses before him I’d have thought

  17. Archaeon says:

    Question: is anyone planning to do something about blood?
    Would be good to have a thread to refer to when the patch hits…

    • Jonneh says:

      Seems to be the most common question, and yet nobody ever makes such a thread. If you read back through my comments on Consider’s blog, I’ve given dozens of points about why blood is bad as it is, feel free to steal it if you can post on the US forums. I gave up on the eu forums years ago.

      As it stands, blood is supposed to be one of the better tanking specs. I suspect this will have a lot to do with the gear people are in at 80, and perhaps some overcompensation from blizzard on the numbers side.

      The design is pretty flawed in many ways still.

      • Archaeon says:

        That’s exactly why i’m asking. I’m not in the beta, so i could be horribly wrong, but from what i read it seems Blood is… well , let’s say it’s not so OK.
        But no one seems to care so much.
        Of course, I hope it’s just a big misunderstanding and/or they will fix it, but still…

      • Sag says:

        My largest concern is that they gave both Pallies and Warriors 25% parry rating from Str. So there went that nice little bit of avoidance. This means they are assuming that the shield from DS will act as well as block for those two tanks. I can’t imagine that that is going to happen. I do know that block is changing, but I haven’t looked up how this is so just yet.

        I also wonder if there is anything Blizz is saying about +block rating on tank gear. I realize I can reforge it off, but I wonder if that extra expense is cared about (maybe they will just say our runeforges offset that, so much for a class perk), and I was under the assumption that the most you can reforge away is half a secondary stat, so I’m still stuck with block on my gear. Did I miss something on that?

        I’ve read lots of bad about blood tanking, but not much since they made the latest round of changes. I still think streaming adds will be an issue, esp for anything at 80 because we cannot pick up morbidity to lay down a nice and strong DnD to pull things to. I sincerely doubt that BB will really be that good, even with it’s improved range.

      • Archaeon says:

        And if you add that you’re gonna have to choose between a block mechanic and 2 HS it just adds to the mix. At least the other tanks have block all the time. Our “pro” was that we get parry from STR, and they made it baseline for the others too.
        So much for even terrain.

      • Gosox says:

        I’m relatively sure that there was a blue post on the beta forms citing that Dks and Druids had better scaling mitigation then warriors and paladins. Which would explain this move to try to help those classes. Also str currently does nothing but provide AP they needed to make it more competative to agi to justify stat weights.

      • Archaeon says:

        Are you sure? I think i read the opposite… somewhere. Don’t ask where though. 🙂

      • Blighted says:

        While I’m not a main spec blood tank, and don’t want to pretend that there aren’t inherent flaws with the current design. But at the same time there are also many aspects that are quite favorable. From my experience with MANY MANY randoms on the beta, ‘capable’ blood tanks not only are the only tank I can’t pull threat on, but as a competent raid healer on my 2nd main (it’s a ‘bit’ more then an alt) they are also by far the easiest to heal. Keep in mind when it comes to ‘streaming adds’ the BB buff is quite extensive ([ 8% of AP + 267 ] vs 180 to 220 damage on live) further modified by the 40% extra damage output, and 10% less physical damage taken, with a FREE resource cost provided by Crimson Scourge\Scarlet Fever talents. Couple that with the insane scaling capabilities of the buffed DS heal+shield (minimum shield of 10% of your health) and you aren’t sitting in as ‘bad’ a territory as you might think.

        If you haven’t tried it yet, don’t knock it, I think if you play more then one tank class, you’ll feel that blood tanking isn’t quite as “broken” as it might read on paper.

      • Sag says:

        I’ve stated earlier I was trying to get a feel for it, and figure out if I should reforge anything. I’m pretty sure I lost about 10% avoidance with this patch.

        Apparently IBP got a buff with 20% more haste, which should help with the streaming adds issue, as well as the RS in BP (though i can’t test that). I just don’t know how well our mastery will end up scaling/how well the DS shield is really going to work. I haven’t seen the math that says the scaling on this ability will be insane, though I didn’t go into the EJ thread that deeply, I just skimmed it.

        Also within my second pull of killing a few mobs in the world I already pulled more than I wanted with the BB range increase. Seeing a picture, and actually doing itare way different.

    • Theldonn says:

      I believe Gravity was going to handle all of the tanking subjects. He has a forum somewhere, I just don’t have the link on hand. I’ll will get back to this post when I dig it up.

  18. Gumibears says:

    How does engineering change things? And, what’s up with engineering tinkers now? The hyperspeed accelerators lost some haste and the rocket boots lost crit, but I’ve heard rumors that they allow normal enchants to stack with them now.

    • Consider says:

      All true. Engineering is still the best profession right now, but by no more than it has been in the past. Still too early to say for 85 itself.

      Does make it nice as one doesn’t have to generate different BiS sets to work around the lost hit.

      • Magdalena of Turalyon says:

        Imagine my delight when I found out about this new perk of Engineering! It let me reforge even more haste from my gloves. When I (hopefully) get my 277 Ahn’kahar, I’ll also be able to shave away more hit from my bracers.
        Really, the only thing I could wish for at this point (my axe aside) is a Halion trinket.

  19. velk says:

    I am not sure that Kahories is in a reasonable state to do predictions with. In theory, it should give an almost identical result to training dummy dps when you select the appropriate buffs ( horn of winter, ebon plague and brittle bones in this case for the ebon hold dummy ), but it’s predictions were, in my experience, at least 1500dps lower than what I saw with actual testing.

    It also listed melee haste as still being 20%, and gave an EP rating for haste of -3, none of which fill me with confidence.

  20. Leviatharan says:

    So since the servers will be up in, oh, an hour, and we still have to fend from then on until Cata comes out in 2 months, it may be a decent time to ask: Is there currently a best spec for level 80 DPS? Since we can only spend 36 points, theres bound to be a few things we’re missing..

    • Leviatharan says:

      Not too much of a big deal, just torn between taking a point out of Bladed Armor to put into Magic Suppression, taking one out of Sudden Doom to put into Magic Suppression, or just leaving Magic Suppression alone and doing the regular 5/0/31.

      • Leviatharan says:

        My first thought is just to take a point out of Bladed Armor, but I have no idea how much of a loss that may actually be. Or hey, it might not be a loss at all. Just don’t like surprises. >.>

  21. Jonneh says:

    Rune Strike now deals 150% weapon damage, down from 200%. No longer requires you to dodge or parry, only usable while in Blood Presence. Now costs 30 Runic Power, up from 20 Runic Power.

    Improved Blood Presence now increases your rune generation by 10/20%

    How interesting.

    • Consider says:

      Seems perfect to me. The nerf to RS’s effect and cost are obviously necessary to counterbalance the huge buff to IBP; and even if the numbers ultimately are equal, it’s still going to be better for the spec as a whole to get more rune abilities.

      I’m sure some people will complain, but it’s a pretty solid solution.

    • Jonneh says:

      Totally called the RS damage nerf, kind of obvious it had to go that way.

      The rune regen change is a big big thing for blood. Dicey though!

      Blood come anywhere near being better for frost/unholy now? ;x Kinda OP for pvp at any rate, using your defensive stance type stay alive button also gives you 20% rune haste. Pretty fair deal really. and then you get to rune strike, which still hits fairly hard, if not like a truck.

      Without testing couldn’t really confirm the last part, but all in all it seems like they made a last ditched effort to solve Blood’s rune availability issues.

      • Consider says:

        The 20% rune regen is tied to Imp BP, so it’s not a concern for the other specs.

        How Blood fares in PvP could certainly be interesting though.

      • Jonneh says:

        oh yeah, you know it just didnt register when I read it before! Derp!

        Not so much of an issue then really, more runes without needing haste gear might prop blood up a bit, but the spec really has no control/utility (beyond the baseline DK stuff) which distinguish say a prot warrior. I guess loading yourself with survival talents and dps/pvp gear might turn out to be amusing, but ultimately probably not within blizzards design. Tank spec pvp is supposed to be more about control, survival etc I believe GC said. Blood spec actually offers little of that looking at the talents.

        The only reason to really do it on paper is if this change is OP when using dps/pvp gear and spamming RS/rune atacks. Without seeing numbers its hard to comment, but someone should test and see what HS/DS/RS hit for on cloth->plate!

      • Sag says:

        I’d love to check some of that out, but as I am sure everyone realizes the RS up anytime in blood presence thing didn’t go live, or at least it wasn’t functioning for me.

        I’m trying to find it anywhere, but I have yet to find stat weights for blood at all. If we are supposed to be surviving longer as a tank pvping should I consider reforging mastery onto all of my pvp gear for a very strong bubble?

        PvP aside for a second is the mastery good enough that I should think of stacking that, even over dodge or parry? I couldn’t really find any information on this either.

        While Blood DKs don’t get a much more utility for being a tank, staying alive is utility enough in a lot of cases. With the emphasis on BGs in Cat, just being able to stay around at a node until help arrives will be even more important, or even being able to pester the opposition and keep more than 1 at a different node is important. I’m not sure that Blood will be able to do this better than other tanks, or even other DK specs, but the CDs are there, I just don’t know if it will be enough.

  22. yo says:

    Hey, I tried to ask you about how you didn’t account for the exp losses from old tier 10 expertise talents; Do we need to account for the lost 5 expertise?

  23. Haardrada says:

    Best/worst undocumented change: flying over the well in front of the north bank in Dalaran now auto-dismounts you. Even if you’re 500 feet above it.

  24. Jonneh says:

    Screens or a small vid of the new UI consider? 😀

  25. Failoria says:

    From playing around on target dummies last night (I know, I know….target dummies don’t mean a whole lot), I don’t think DW Frost is viable at all until they at least fix the ToT bug and hopefully the IIT bug. Just by switching to a 2h Frost spec and ignoring proper reforging (I was reforged for DW…which is similiar, but not optimal) I was able to do over 2k more dps on the target dummy. I was doing nothing different priority wise, was about 1% under the hit-cap, and I was running only 17 expertise. That is a pretty huge difference. This is between 2x 277 BVB’s and a 277 Cryptmaker.

    On a side note, does anyone else feel like they have to have their eyes glued to their runes to play any Frost spec now? With RE the way it is, you never really know whats going to be available to used or when it is going to be available.

    • Kortic says:

      I can back this up. Our guild did our typical heroic icc 25 last night. Usually we full clear in 1 night however in 3 hrs last night we only cleared 2 wings :/
      Anyways I did the first 1/2 of the run as DW frost, gemmed geared and reforged appropriately. Usually pulling between 17-19k on DBS I managed to top out at 13k (and other bosses were similar). After rotface I went to UC while some guildies updated mods and regemmed/reforged for 2h frost. All my gear was the same except the weapon swap from 2x BvB 277 to a Cryptmaker 277. I ended up averaging 1k more dps than DW frost. I will assume once the bugs are fixed that the gap will close but for now that’s how it was.

  26. Jonneh says:

    I noticed that the pesti tooltip said; “Diseases spread this way deal 100% of normal damage”

    When checking i found that;

    Strangely the target i hit with PS/IT took less damage from Blood plague and Frost Fever than the other target I spread them to. Strange huh? ;P (crits ofc)

    Quite decent for 60% diseases!! 😀

    Guess they forgot to implement that :s And I’m guessing the talent actually does nothing? Gonna respec in a bit and see what happens without it.

    • Jonneh says:

      Some more bugs for your bug section of the thread Consider:

      Pestilence as above

      Raise Dead seems to have a 2 min cooldown even as Unholy spec (bug?) But the cooldown also resets each time you mount and dismount, causing your pet to re summon. Believe this always was like this but 30 seconds wasn’t too bad.. 2 mins though! Could be annoying.

      Garg still melees zzzzz

      I can’t seem to figure out why, but sometimes during a dummy test or whatever my Blood Plague will have like 8 seconds left, and 20+ secs on FF. Anyone else noticed this or knows why FS doesn’t seem to extend both equally sometimes?

      • Sag says:

        I’ve noticed that too. I think there is an issue with FeS. Also I though that FeS would only reset diseases 3 times, 6 seconds each time. So 18 extra seconds of disease time. As it stands now I’m pretty sure I never will have diseases drop off once they are applied. As in as long as I can use FeS the diseases will be reset. I don’t think that is working as intended. Also every once and a while though I seem to lose a disease, or one disease drops off before the others (for me usually Ebon Plague) and I have to restart the IT+PS to keep all 3 diseases up.

        I was trying to check it out more, but I can’t seem to stay connected to the server long enough to do much of anything.

  27. Raxx says:

    It would seem that raid buffed your UH numbers are some way off, but some data there I am sure you can use?

    • Jonneh says:

      with you doing more DC damage than SS, I should say your rotation seems like it was way off to me.

      I do more damage with SS (Just the physical portion) than I do with DC by quite some way in every ingame test and sim I run.

      Not to mention, the fight was 2 mins long. Not exactly a great template for testing. Sims are all 5 mins, as said above.

      Your Sindragosa kill seems much closer, with numbers feeling alot more correct, those extra 3 minutes really average out the damage per skill to around what it is shown in sims.

      • Magdalena of Turalyon says:

        That parse (in terms of damage breakdown) is near identical to mine from last night, and it was also for heroic 25 Saurfang.

        Normally, as you’ve said, the physical portion of Scourge Strike is doing a lot more damage, so I can’t explain the result either. I can tell you I did get very lucky with procs that night. More SDs = More Runic Corruption = More runes for RP.

      • Raxx says:

        Rotation is a way off? are you serious?

        What DPS are you expecting with the right rotation then? 25k? 30k?

        Heres a clue for you, DC damage is dependant on SD procs and runic power, RP which you gain from spending runes, where would you suggest the runes were wrongly spent?

        Lets see one of your ingame parses to compare.

    • Jonneh says:

      Prolly worth noting that there are so many bugged skills at this point that ingame is even less reliable than the beta/ptr so far as analysing what dps should be like!

    • Scuzoid says:

      There is nothing off about the sims posted. Firstly, that dps parse is merely 17,100 outside of ICC. Secondly, it’s a 2 minute parse compared to these 5 minute sims. Lastly, the 5 minutes sims themselves are +/- 1300 dps, putting you ~1,700 dps higher than what should be the peak all because of the ridiculous BL/UF/Garg/Shattering Throw uptime you saw in your parse.

  28. Legatus says:

    I’m loving the changes to DW frost so far. Thanks to Consider’s hard work I looked like a pro the 1st night.

    So far in 5man heriocs I’m pulling 9k overall dps and as much as 15k on mini trash pulls.
    I’m doing more aoe damage now than before so I expect them to nerf HB soon. My burst damage has improved greatly, feels more like blood dps’s burst damage.

    I also did the test dummy as well but the numbers were horrible on it which were completely way off base to what the spec is actually doing.

    The new graphics on screen for freezing fog and rime procs make it stupid easy. Can now focus more on the fight instead of runes or an addon. The priority base or rotation for skills (whatever you want to call it) really didn’t change that much in my opinion.

    I will admit I enjoyed DW frost so much that I haven’t even tried 2hand frost or unholy yet.

    I had one question about hit rating, am I correct that the current hit rating is 246 for 2hand at lvl 80 but will go up to 960 at lvl 85? It seems like a awfully big jump in just 5 levels.

    • Theldonn says:

      I don’t know if they will nerf howling blast. It seems to hit just a little bit harder single target than Icy Touch. While it is a beast in AoE situations, you can kill yourself easily.

  29. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    @The Scourge Strike question: This is just a wild guess, but: It’s critting but NOT benefitting from Runic Focus? That would give it a 150% damage increase when critting, and the extra 2% is due to Ebon Plague, which is compensating for partial resists?

  30. Andeus says:

    Just a heads up:

    Eurogamer is giving away 1000 beta keys (200 keys per day for 5 days, today being the 2nd day I believe). All you have to do is register and when the sticky-news link says they are available you have to hit a “claim your key button” in the news article. Quite easy and also how I got mine today.

    On live, is it me or Scourge Strike is kinda weak on live? With my lame 264gear+Heroic Bryn’Troll, my normal hits (physical+shadow) are about 5-6k, Crits 9.8-10.8k
    Festering Strike on the other hand crits for 15.1k. Impressive.

    Also on level 80 rotations, since we lack Outbreak we obviously start with IT+PS–>FeS–>SS but that leaves us 1 Blood Rune. Is it better to wait for the Frost Rune to go up and FeS again or Blood Strike to put on cooldown + get added procs and maybe a better Gargoyle?

    • waylandyr says:

      Keep in mind, ScS dropped to a 1 rune ability, whereas FeS is a 2 rune ability.

    • Minaka says:

      That giveaway is over now, at least that’s what the Eurogamer website says.

      • Andeus says:

        I think it’s over for today, because that’s the same message it showed after yesterday’s contest was over too. I was wrong, today was the contest’s 4th day so there should be 200 more sometime tomorrow.

  31. Anonymous says:

    I have a question.

    Are our diseases supposed to be affected by haste because i tried them with 0 haste gear on and got 11 ticks, 784 haste and got 11 ticks and 1042 haste and got 11 ticks.

    I heard a nasty rumor that they may have pulled the plug on our diseases scaling with haste but i can confirm at least for me they do not on live.

  32. Ashe says:

    Lol, the EJ threads are getting SLAMMED with dummy testing. Have fun with that Consider…

  33. Seagul says:

    I´ll leave here a question beacause I can´t find the right answer and silly me, I did not try yesterday. Also it may be more a shaman question than a DK question

    Now that the melee/ranged attack speed buff is 10%, and the improved Windfury totem Talent is gone from
    the enhancement tree, is the windfury totem droppable by any other spec, and has the same effect as IIT?.

    I feel very frustrated raiding as frost only for IIT now that unholy is pulling ahead by a big margin …

    • Jonneh says:

      Yes, the buff can be provided by any shaman. Caster shamans would still prefer to drop a 5% spell haste totem though unless you get that from elsewhere (Boomkin, shadow priest iirc)

      There are no “improved” buffs any more so they all are just the best that can be provided, with the slight exception of there being 2 different versions of the spellpower buff. There is a 6% version provided by all mages (Arcane Int) and a 10% version by Elemental Shamans and Demo Locks. They do not stack.

  34. Haardrada says:

    Not that you should be hit by it anyway, but Malleable Goo now increases rune regen times apparently.

    • Jonneh says:

      Most debuffs that affect “attack speed” seem to have this. Doing BWL for a friend last night I noted that in the suppression aura room, with 400% attack speed reduction, each rune had a 30 second cooldown.

      It definitely gave me some free globals.

      • Andeus says:

        Hm, probably its just the way they created the mechanics for Haste.

        For example to add Haste scaling to our runes they probably just added Runes to the stats “affected list” so when you get “attack speed” reduction the game applies a hidden aura with a negative variable eg “Apply Haste modifier -400%” and since you don’t have a negative cap it goes all the way below zero.

        They could fix it by just adding a Rune exception with a minimum cap like 0%, or creating the whole thing again from scratch and adding different Haste rules for Runes.

      • Scuzoid says:


        What they may or may not be able to fix is up for debate, as is what they care to fix. Was H Anub ever possible when your guild used a druid/death knight MT/OT combo?

        Eflow (I think it was eflow) has already shown cataclysm dungeons where this mechanic persists forcing us to do nothing for extended periods.

      • Andeus says:

        Erm, sorry but I’m not following you.

        I never doubted that this is “wrong” as a gameplay mechanic for us, just showed that it’s probably an aftereffect of Blizzard’s adding Haste to our Runes the easy way. More like a bug. So it’s kinda easy for them to fix; simply add a couple of exceptions via minimum caps if you do want DKs to get affected as a gameplay mechanic or make Rune haste unaffected but debuffs if you don’t want Dks to get affected at all.

  35. Musashi Blaker says:

    Hey Consider,

    I’ve been a long time reader of both your EJ Thread for unholy and this blog. Currently in the Unholy Thread on EJ theres been talk about using a macro to have your ghoul claw when you Scourge Strike or whatever, I used the macro facerollinc posted on the first page of the EJ Unholy Thread.(I modified it for a human DK that isn’t an engineer) and was disappointed to learn that the ghoul would run off if the target died to the Scourge Strike and would attack a random mob, very inconvenient for almost anything, there have been multiple macros posted since than for geting rid of that problem, which is the best one to use? you can just put in your macro section for the EJ thread if you don’t want to post here.

  36. Tom says:

    Y have Mac so I can not use Kahorie. So could you answer me this question: Is now the Cryptmaker HC better than Bryntroll HC for a Unholy DK DPS (4.0.1) ? And which is the difference of DPS between them?

    • Consider says:

      Yes, it is better, and the difference in terms of absolute dps just depends on your individual gear.

      I thought Kahories could be used on macs now, since it’s silverlight based?

  37. Chris says:

    jw, on your elitist jerks frost dk compilation. you state (through spec choice) that 3/3 bladed armor is better than 3/3 epidemic, is this true? its hard to believe that 180 ap (at 16,200 armor) is worth more than 4 seconds on diseases

  38. Pingback: Unholy DPS | Cataclysm, Ordinary Days - Page 9 - Elitist Jerks

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