Nightmares – They Do Come True

Hello to a certain Sarah and Jordan

Update: I forgot to mention it, but such a spec would use DnD on cooldown on a single target, and would replace the SS glyph with the DnD glyph. Even without doing either of these – never DnDing on a sole mob sticking with GoSS – the spec still pulls away. This just widens the lead.

Once Kahorie has all the new enchants/gems/set bonuses into the sim, I’ll do an actual full-fledged entry with numbers and explanations and all that (on this subject and on several related ones), but for now, based on initial simming and math, I’ll just say this:

Unholy DW at 85…

Looking viable?
Yes.

Looking optimal?
Yes.

Looking at Blizzard in amusement while attempting to refrain from laughter?
Yes.

As I said, I’ll go more indepth into this shortly, but I don’t expect the trend I’m seeing to shift; although I’ll be the first to admit my mistake if these findings prove wrong. Even if they do, the spec would still be very competitive as the gap would have to be incredibly minor. Amusingly, even were things to reverse themselves and this playstyle were to go back to being behind, Unholy DW and Unholy 2H would still be closer to one another than Frost DW and Frost 2H, not to mention Unholy DW would be closer to Frost DW than Frost 2H will be to Unholy 2H.

Rather ironic, really.

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111 Responses to Nightmares – They Do Come True

  1. Insolence says:

    Ahahahahahaha

    Fail Blizz 😀

    Should have listened to Player Feedback more…..

  2. Ledge says:

    “Looking at Blizzard and refraining from any ‘I told you so’s? Yes.”

    Wouldn’t it be a “No”?

    Also, how is it still viable? Does it somehow not need to stack Expertise or something? Or is it just all the empty GCDs Unholy has right now favoring DWs white damage?

    • Consider says:

      It’s a yes, I assure you!

      It’s viable because it does more damage; it’s as simple as that. Like I said, I’ll go more indepth on the subject shortly, but basically all 2H Unholy has on DW Unholy is stronger SS and FeS. On the other hand, DW Unholy has stronger white damage (DW white is always greater than 2H white for any spec), greater Death Coil damage (more SD procs) and greater ghoul damage (because of the more SD procs and thus faster SI stacking/greater DT uptime). Ultimately the bump in white, DC, and ghoul damage outweighs the loss in strike damage.

      The reason why Unholy DW isn’t close to decent at 80 is due to the fact that we have so much haste, we can’t really benefit from the additional SD procs (and everythign that comes from them (SI, DT, RC), plus Shadowmourne skews things towards 2H, plus 2p t10 favors 2H Unholy (whereas 2p t11 favors DW Unholy).

      As to expertise, it’s not really relevant, as neither of the two variations – Unholy 2H or Unholy DW – need to stack it. If you mean relative to Frost DW, then yes, that might be part of it; it’s not GCD capped in t11, whereas Frost is.

      • Leviatharan says:

        So basically, forcing SD to only proc from 2Hs would kill DW Unholy?

      • Sag says:

        For a little while at least. It’s probably going to take more than one fix to gut DW.

        In general I believe (and I could very well be wrong here) they can’t change it to only proc from 2 handers, they just change it to proc from MH only. Which DW still has a faster MH weapon. Which would still mean more SD procs. They could change SD to a proc per minute as well, but that probably still wouldn’t gut DW, just hold off when it becomes more viable.

        A lot of small changes would have to be made to effectively, and completely, get rid of DW unholy. Which is pretty much what Consider has already said.

      • ODK says:

        wouldnt just an upgrade to what 2handers are compared to one handers make things more reasonable for everyone? (they would have to hit fury warriors hard after that possibly tho), one handers have allways been to close in damage to a 2hander imho….

  3. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1083610464

    Discussion on the damage dealing forums here.

    I *really* hope they pay attention to this =/

    • Consider says:

      I was kinda waiting until I did my “real” post on the subject with math and such to start anything on the forum.

      • Magdalena of Turalyon says:

        Oh I completely understand- I just thought I’d point everyone in the right direction when it came time to discuss on the forums.

  4. Ðemøsthenes says:

    Well if anything it looks like most of us here take Consider’s word as law, so although maybe a little untimely, still meant well and due to how much faith we have in you boss. One question you had cleared this up for me a bit ago that 2-h Unholy was favored by the orcs if we use the axe… Now that DW is better? or on par does that hold true or does the Worgen pull ahead there? Another question I know of the bug that our ghoul’s crit doesn’t seem to scale with ours, has anyone seen a post regarding Blizz fixing this?

    • Consider says:

      Well, I mean, I’m fairly confident in my findings – I wouldn’t have posted even this short blurb otherwise, if I didn’t and if I hadn’t done extensive math and simming. But, still, not 100%, and I hate to ask people to go solely on my word, because I of all people know the annoyance of support-less claims!

      Races don’t really change. Orc is as good for DW Unholy as it is for 2H Unholy. Slightly better, if anything, although it’s a negligible difference.

    • I imagine that the pet bonus (5%) increases in value when you’re able to keep Undead Monstrosity up longer and you can do that by proc’ing more SD, which proc’s more Shadow Infusion, which proc’s more UM.

      And UM giving its bonus to ghoul damage (especially to the Cleave that hits more than one target which your ghoul wouldn’t even normally be hitting) should be benefiting from the pet bonus.

      At least, that seems to make sense to me at 7 AM. 😉

      Plus, the bonus to axes (and its expertise) would seem to be better for DW.

      In general (ignoring orcs), you’d also get more Rune of the Fallen Crusader proc’s (more heals, longer/more str procs) by having it on both your weapons, I’d think? Perhaps this is Blizzard’s way of giving UnH self-healz on par with the other specs that can use Death Pact and Death Strike without tanking their damage? If so, I think they should have prefaced it with, “Good news, everyone!”

  5. ODK says:

    Plus, if i get ya right, we also get Pale Horse AND Lichborne? omfg i couldnt be happier if thats the case…

    • Consider says:

      No and no =(.

      I mean, you could pick up one and/or the other at minor sacrifice (early blood talents), but still a sacrifice. 6/3/32 will be the spec of best dps.

  6. ODK says:

    Our New Spec?
    http://db.mmo-champion.com/utils/talents/#k=3A9AwKMN.a8t.deathknight.

    OR for leveling, pale horse +2 and -2 Bladed armor…

    • Consider says:

      For leveling, 2H Frost is still superior in half a hundred ways.

      But, yeah, for level 85, looking at http://db.mmo-champion.com/utils/talents/#k=7Adkma9G.a8t.deathknight.

      • Mark Miller says:

        Why is 2h frost superior for lvling?

      • Grizzi says:

        Because it has greater burst, and you can start out with oaph from level 80, and it runs in unh pres. If u level as unh be it DW or 2H, then u will rarely get DT up, and ur pet will spend time spawning whenever you dismount, and the pet is to big a part of your dps for that to be worth it.

      • I know one of those ways is inferior self-healing.

        Frost, any spec, has Lichborne for death coiling yourself back up every 2 mins, has death pact you can use any time your ghoul is up (every 3 mins for a non-UH spec), and can drop Death Strike instead of Obliterate/Howling Blast without screwing their rotation. Plus, they can have Rune of the Fallen Crusader on both their weapons to proc more heals at a marginal dps loss.

        Frost will have easy access to the faster mount speed as well. You won’t have to worry about waiting around for your ghoul if it happens to die (Unholy will have to wait 2 minutes, non-negotiable, to get it back in case of freak accident and/or death pact).

        Usually, pet specs are great leveling specs, but in the case of Unholy that is not the case because the pet does not have any way of drawing aggro off you (ie., growl) and it does a lot of damage, but not quite more than you. It does include a short stun, but the stun is so short that I suspect in any leveling scenario where you might want to use a stun, Hungering Cold will probably be better. Remember, I said “leveling scenario.”

        Imo.

      • Anonymous says:

        I think blood is going to also be pretty strong for leveling, given how OP imp blood presence is.

  7. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    Lets not forget: This also makes DW Unholy the spec with the lightest “cap” requirements. 5% hit from gear with no need for Expertise? Ridiculous!

    • Consider says:

      It values expertise somewhat more than 2H Unholy, but not quite as much as its Frost counterparts. At least in t11. In t12/t13, with the higher haste, expertise capping would probably become more important.

    • Griefpb says:

      Not sure how this plays into it, but your ghoul takes its hit rating from you and needs 8%. With such a high percentage of damage coming from your ghoul, hit would still have a high value past special attack cap.

      • Consider says:

        Yup. Remember, with reforging, to take it, a secondary stat only has to be better than the second best alternative; i.e, with haste being the first, then that means crit/expertise, and hit till 8% would still trump either of those.

    • Magdalena of Turalyon says:

      Totally forgot about that >.< I guess it's a good thing pets don't benefit from NoCS then? That would really have sealed 2h's fate!

  8. Ashe says:

    It will be easy enough to fix by changing Sudden Doom, but they probably won’t bother until a month or so in when they do their first balancing patch.
    They should have just listened 5 months ago and made Unholy the DW supported tree since it’s the pet and DoT tree (though the DoT part has pretty much been lost). The only thing that makes Frost the DW tree is ToT, that single talent could have been moved over. Oh well.

    • Rebellion says:

      Hehe, some things are just ment to happen. Sadly blizzards realization that their choice for a dw tree was the worst possible one is not among them. But the reoccuring uprise of dw is defineatly one i already predicted back when they introduced the deathknight class and sadly it holds true till today. Maybe blizzard should finally think about making a 2h weapon equal to 2 1h weapons. While it wouldn’t solve the issue compleatly because of other factors like 2 enchants instead of one, it would do both DKs and Arms warriors a big favor.

      Ah well lets face it, they ignored their own design goals through out the whole beta on so many occasions that I lost count, what else can you expect than this new nightmare of dw-pigeonholing (does that word exist ?) 🙂 ?:

  9. Mikami says:

    Does this mean DW unholy will have a mix of Fallen Crusader and Cinderglacier as weapons enchants ?

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=53341 (cinderglacier in case you completly forgot about this enchant)

    • Consider says:

      =p. I know what Cinderglaciar is!

      In my testing, I was assuming just dual Fallen Crusader. I’m not sure whether CG would be worth it or not; it’s possible. It’s also possible Landslide or Hurricane could be potential options. If any of those did turn out to be better, it would simply increase the lead of the spec. I’ll look into it in due time.

  10. Noin says:

    Couldn’t they just change it by making Sudden Doom proc only on main-hand auto-attacks?

    • Consider says:

      There’s many things they could do to kill the spec if they want. I’m not quite sure if that would be enough, but who knows. If they want it dead, they’ll do something.

      • Best way to kill the spec is to switch ToT and NoCS, then make ToT AND MotFW part of the Frost spec passives. They said they didn’t want to make a DW talent part of the spec because it would make people believe they HAD to go DW. Fine. Make both the DW and the 2H talents part of the spec so people see they have a choice, then give Frost something to spend on in the early tiers that other specs can use. Something along the lines of dps so that people who would love to have Lichborne and On a Pale Horse can go there without suffering a considerable dps loss (aka, “giving Unholy a choice between blood and frost rather than just blood”). Then put something else for 2H’ers to spend on at the bottom of the tree, thus giving yet ANOTHER opportunity for 2H Frost to be even with DW.

        Haha, maybe, “Sudden Freeze – This gives your two-handed Obliterate attacks a chance to overwhelm you with Frost magic, tainting and changing your next death coil into a frost coil. Frost coils benefit from your mastery and make your target blue like that kid from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Frost Coils cost no runic power.”

        Or “Frosty the Snow-ghoul – Active – Raises your go-to ghoul, Frosty, from the freezing barrens of Northrend and sets him loose upon your target. Frosty the Snow-ghoul is blue, causes frost damage against his target that is affected by your mastery and frost presence, slashes his target with a 5% bonus to all frost damage, and at the end of his duration explodes with frosty damage. Cooldown: 10 minutes. Lasts: 2 minutes. PS: Don’t worry. He’ll be back again someday.”

        Heh.

  11. Rebellion says:

    So, just to make sure that I understand you correctly.
    At the moment the dps values compare like
    dw frost > dw unholy > 2h unholy > 2h frost
    , right ?

    Or is dw unholy even above dw frost ?
    And what diffrence are we talking about (a rough guess)? Do we talk about 2,3 or even 4 digits between each variation ?

    • Consider says:

      DW Unholy > 2h Unh = DW Frost > 2h Frost

      DW Unh is ~5% ahead, while 2H Frost is a solid 10% behind. 2H Unh and DW Frost are within like 2% of one another, which is a small enough margin to make it basically come down to individual gear, racials, and other personal factors. The lead DW Unh has and the gap 2H Frost has are more or less unsurmountable given equivalent gear unless a fight has some really gimmicky mechanic.

      For reference, dps is in the 20k’s, so when we’re talking 5%, we’re talking a solid ~1k ahead.

      • Rebellion says:

        Now that sounds alot worse than i anticipated. I guess I should start getting used to the idea of dw during t11 until the first dk pass of he expansion happens.

  12. Rivena says:

    Why you gotta make me sad right before bed, Consider? 😦

  13. Makro says:

    Just a quick question: would swapping Nerves of Cold Steel with something deeper in the frost tree (like On a Pale Horse, i’d love it to be more accessible) kill DW Unholy, or at least destroy its lead, or SD procs alone are enough to make it viable?

    • Consider says:

      No, no, and that’s only part of it.

      It’s no one thing propping the playstyle up although, yes, if you had to pick one specific talent, SD has the most effect.

      • Makro says:

        Dude you are fast 🙂
        SInce i’m at it, you are also awesome! Never took the chance to thank you for the awesome work you do for our class. Keep it up!

  14. Valtiel says:

    There’s one very, very, very GOOD thing in this, tho.
    If 2h is falling behind in both speccs, there’s a chance Blizz may find a fix that also solves the Frost 2h problem.

    • Baphomette says:

      That’s good thinking. Stay true, two-handers. 🙂

      Blizz remains silent on single-target HB, let’s see how they react to single-target DnD.

      • Single target Howling Blast ALWAYS seemed like an odd choice to me, but the sum total of what they’ve done is increase the importance of Obliterate, which has no Frost flavor at all. So strange. Couldn’t they have at least made Obliterate seem more frost-y? Does any other spec use it?

      • Insolence says:

        Blood could in theory use Obliterate if we pick up Acclimation, although I’m not sure how exactly it would compare to Death Strike in terms of Damage. In terms of Survivability its a huge loss due to Death Strike’s Healing + Blood Shield procs from Death Strike.

        Unholy would get a huge DPS loss from using Obliterate instead of FeS + SS first and foremost because for them it costs two strikes, one FeS + one SS each time, so no.

        Imo if they make Frost work off just 1 Disease Single-Target HB would be justified, look at how pathetically IT and PS hit. (IIRC HB on Single-Target is weak right?)

  15. Nivalas says:

    Now our fellow unholy brothers can feel the pain of having DW taking over their tree as well >.>

  16. Grief says:

    Good find, keep up it up!

  17. Valtiel says:

    HB on single target is far from “weak”, it’s a 15-16k nuke with full aoe potential.

    The core problem is that since it replaces IT, you’re at an effective dps loss when forced to use IT in instances where CC is important. IT doesn’t hit anywhere close to HB on single target.

    And OB was Frost-y from day one. It’s a frost spell, an high damage nuke and so on. DKs are a melee class and the core of their damage should be melee damage, not magic.

    • Insolence says:

      If your Tank is stupid enough to not move the Mob he/she is tanking for near a CCd mob then they deserve a /kick, period.

      • Valtiel says:

        Still, it’s your opener, and the aoe range is quite huge, and then consider “gogogogogogo” randomers from the dungeon finder…

        Stupidity or not, Frost will suffer a massive dps loss in 5 men content if the new instances are half as challenging as they’re claiming. People looks at frost now and think it’s the ultimate 5 men specc because everyone is spamming HB on targets that couldn’t gib you in Frost Presence even if your healer was afk, but if AoE isn’t a possibility, you’ll see Frost scratch its head quite a lot. The specc is balanced around using HB; it’s not like a warrior choosing HS over Cleave (yes, Cleaving would be more dps, but HS is a stronger single target spell). HB is stronger in multi AND single target dps, and frankly it’s nonsense.

        I suspect a majority of players can’t care less about 5 men performance, but it’s gonna be an issue for a lot of “casual” players who will either suffer in raids and bosses because they won’t gliph HB “because it’s bad for 5 men” or will become the Cata hunters in 5 men horror stories.

      • Insolence says:

        There’s a lot of CC in some of the Heroics, and Deepholm especially is fun and challenging (as an example).

        Damage isn’t anywhere near where you can just spam away though, and “go go go” people have two choices: Learn that “go go go” is over (for now) or stop using Dungeon Finder, because they won’t survive long.

      • Awesome to hear there’s a lot of CC in heroics. I mean, we ARE one of the two classes without any kind of CC. That’s going to make grouping for those instances as DPS fun.

      • ODK says:

        You should still be able to use HB tho, like insolence said (or as i took it) the tank should be pulling the npc away from the CC’d npc’s (which is also a problem with useing pestilence) and i agree the tank should just pull back further or leave, but even if he doesnt pull back, Atleast with howling blast you can turn youself away from the CC and blast away, while pestilence – being alot more of your dps for unholy, cant be turned around and used, you can move your body in a direction AWAY from the CC’d npc if your just barely far enough and keep pestilence from reaching, but chances are you wont succeed all of the time…

        also, you want to be behind the npc anyways, tanks seem to never turn around their npc’s anymore casue of the annoyance of the npc walking through you every time and not being able to melee it, so now just standing behind your main target should naturally be facing away from the CC’d npc’s

        i think they need to give DK’s a more effective CC or maby a decent glyph that turns CoI into a good CC — either way, even if neither is useable in arena/BG – it would be great…

        and for tanking, i would REALLY like to see glyph of disease come back, it really sucks to not have it when you need it….

  18. Valtiel says:

    I know, just saying that that’s not good news for Frost, because while most classes gain single target dps by dropping aoe, we lose single target dps by dropping HB.

    It’s simply bad class design, nothing major.

  19. Rodalpho says:

    I assume this doesn’t apply at 80 with 1H agility weapons.

    What’s the point where DW beats 2H unholy? As soon as you get two green ilvl272 1H strength DPS weapons?

    • Blighted says:

      Just to help out, for you, or others who post replies without reading the current comments or replies to those comments:

      Quoted from Consider above:

      “…basically all 2H Unholy has on DW Unholy is stronger SS and FeS. On the other hand, DW Unholy has stronger white damage (DW white is always greater than 2H white for any spec), greater Death Coil damage (more SD procs) and greater ghoul damage (because of the more SD procs and thus faster SI stacking/greater DT uptime). Ultimately the bump in white, DC, and ghoul damage outweighs the loss in strike damage.

      The reason why Unholy DW isn’t close to decent at 80 is due to the fact that we have so much haste, we can’t really benefit from the additional SD procs (and everythign that comes from them (SI, DT, RC), plus Shadowmourne skews things towards 2H, plus 2p t10 favors 2H Unholy (whereas 2p t11 favors DW Unholy).”

  20. Brecca says:

    Now stare very closely at Blood and see the hidden variable that makes DW tanking viable! 😀

    • ODK says:

      considering they only gave you DW weapons for tank on the Beta (before the 359 gear atleast) – i wouldnt be surprised if that was their thought….

  21. Wangry says:

    The question here is that, if DW Unholy is the way to go and blizzard does nothing to fix it (highly unlikely), would a fast agi off hand be better than a slow strength one? I know the difference between the two stats is rather substantial, but couldn’t it possibly be made up with the increased SD procs that come from your off hand striking half as often?

  22. Grave says:

    Sweet now not only is frost dps is being propped up by a bug on live, (and beta?) the bastard DW unholy build is coming out strong again. And since it would be unholy dropping dnd on cd for single target it will be ANOTHER case of free aoe dmg in single target fights, just like frost.

    You know, I would love to know how much actual time was spent discussing dk issues, testing dk play, or reading dk feedback on the forums.

    • ODK says:

      hahah no shit, its like they picked up an Ounce of coke, some baking soda, some brillo and a glass tube, cooked up and said “DK Discussion time! – Pass the Pipe before you speak!”

      • ODK says:

        also. i would MUCH rather have a 2min ghoul cooldown that starts on summon than a 30sec that starts on death….

        this gives you the opportunity to blow death pact and put the ghoul back up immediately rather than waitin 30 secs, and your ghoul really shouldnt be dying more often than every 2 mins…

    • I think there was a five minute period where GC told dk’s in a thread to be quiet and stop complaining. Haha, j/k. I think back when we were scratching our heads, watching pallies and warriors getting tons of attention (despite the fact that warriors’ rage normalization was a lot like our rune changes in significance), we were definitely not getting worked on.

      Right about when they changed Unholy to have Undead Monstrosity, I think that’s about when they started work on DK’s. This explains the removal of Armor->AP from warriors, but not from DK’s. And of course the removal of a spell hit talent from pallies, but not from DK’s. They just ran out of time.

      Right before that, GC had said something to the effect of, “DK’s talent trees were done the latest, so they aren’t going to see much change at all.” Two weeks later, Unholy had Shadow Infusion, Undead Monstrosity, and Contagion. Even with those, though, they managed to ruin things. They took away the heal that we had come to count on from Ghoul Frenzy (forcing us to use death coil to do the same thing at dps loss) and they never replaced Night of the Dead to give us a way to resummon our ghoul in case of catastrophic death of ghoul. So unlike every other pet class, we’re screwed if our ghoul dies from some freak accident.

      Locks and hunters can resummon instantly at no cost for the first “accident.” Both classes get that as an overall benefit of their pet, not having to take the pet spec to get it. Meanwhile, the dk’s will be waiting their two minute timers out, doing subpar dps for the duration because Blizzard forgot to replace Night of the Dead.

      • Consider says:

        Dark Transformation, my friend. Dark Transformation.

        Undead Monstrosity, what!

      • Leviatharan says:

        When was the last time I used Ghoul Frenzy in an endgame raid setting?

        And as for pet summoning, our cooldown starts when we cast the spell now, not when the pet dies as it used to. Meaning that as long as you can keep your pet from dying for 2 minutes (or even 1.5 min) you won’t see much of a difference in Ghoul uptime than you did before the patch.

    • ODK says:

      also forgot to mention, that imho you should probably use death embrace glyph and be hittin your ghoul between fights to keep his SI stacks up or at 5 ready to transform on your next fight, this should also help keep the ghoul up for the 2mins atleast….

    • coldazice says:

      This is actually the thing I fear most, that frost dps sucks as soon as they fix that and that I missed the window to reroll ^. Unholy is just in such a pathetic state, I really couldn’t bare to stick to it the whole addon – but on the other hand you just can’t play a spec which is ~20% behind in damage.

  23. Abd says:

    in my opinion..allowing DK to DW was a big mistake. if a player wanna DW, go fury warriors/enh Shamans or rogues. Death knight was always about 2H.. again thats in my opinion!

    • Leviatharan says:

      Well now the deed is done. Lorewise they’ve got two DWing DKs already (Thassarian and Darion).
      Don’t think they’re gonna fix that now.

  24. Demosthenes says:

    Yes this is what I have observed as well, so I don’t think that pet uptime will honestly be much of an issue unless they are taking alot of AoE dmg. One of the questions, that was brought up earlier was if a fast off hand was equpped would it make up for lack of Str on the item? Good question! I feel for you Consider… EJ post, then all of chomping at the bit for the news on this DW Unholy situation… Dont kill yourself Boss!
    Question of my own, does this change the BIS sets for Unholy now any? The weapon of course but intitial Justice points and rep gear will the be altered?

  25. Anaroth says:

    There basically are no fast offhands anymore that DKs can use.
    Pretty much all the 1H weapons have speed 2.6 now.

    In terms of stats 2 1H weapons have 6/7 of the stats of an equal level 2Her.
    In terms of rarity a DPS strength 1Her is definitely rarer than an agility 1Her or a strength 2Her. There are tanking weapons that are available as well, but we’d lose something on the stats on those.

  26. Anaroth says:

    Hurricane could be an interesting option as it’s based on an internal cooldown.

    Some very rough calculations gives about a 76% uptime for Fallen Crusader for a 2H.
    For main hand only in a DW situation about 68% uptime,
    and for both weapons in DW about a 82% uptime.

    Because strength is such a critical stat, I think it’s going to be pretty hard to beat out dual FC enchants.

  27. Alasia says:

    ❤ why hello!

  28. WaffleDK says:

    Bah, after all that work trying to get 2h to be above DW, too. Well screw it, I’m still going to be using 2h Unholy. I don’t care if DW is better right now. I don’t want to DW so I won’t.

  29. Xfrost says:

    Off topic but its probably a good idea to reforge into mastery and regem as much strength as possible for 2h frost levelling 80-85 right?

  30. jhazedk says:

    Consider,in an old entry you said,you will compare each spec in tier 11 (how much every single spec does).
    Maybe I’m just blind but I can’t see this right now ^^

  31. Dethklôk says:

    Thanks for all your hard work Consider. Been following your guides a long time and 99.99% of the time i find your research dead on and bolsters my play. Thanks again!!

  32. Griptard says:

    Consider, I know you’ve been bombarded with all of the dw vs. 2h talk. Take your time on your numbers so that we can build our argument to Blizzard about this. Let us (your faithful DK followers) if we can help in any way.

  33. Jhadur says:

    Hah, that DK question on MMOChamp, almost word for word what I asked in the BB chat that didn’t get answered. Nice to see they pulled some stuff from their readers to hit him with.

    • rebellion says:

      Too bad his answer was absolutly useless. The standart “there is so much whine, we don’t care” phrase was the best he was able to come up with. I wish the guy had asked for more detailed design goals and what happened to them (2h frost beeing viable, HB’s free aoe dps gain on signle target fights, the continous uprise of dw unholy, their choice for a dw tree in general, why do we have to spec for spellhit, the obviously flawed concept of the million and one dk tank cooldowns, haste values already beeing out of control in early raid stages, some specs capping gcd’s yet again, mastery beeing utterly useless for unholy, all our new spells beeing either situational or pvp oriented and so on).

      At least he kind of admitted that they were working sloppy and didn’t check all the possibilities opposed to their previous stance of pretending to be grand all-knowing masterminds of theorycraft with mystic spreadsheets that tell them everything and yet missing alot of stuff that was downright obvious ;).

      But hey, more broekn stuff equals more interesting stuff that can happen with the first batch of classoverhauls within the expansion.

      • Jhadur says:

        I agree, wish they had asked my second question about HB and how it compares to Divine Storm and Whirlwind.

      • I got the impression from his answer there that he was acknowledging there and elsewhere that they knew parts were broken, but they could spend no more time on it. I think this is the case, mostly because DK’s were obviously the last class worked on and SEEM to be the class worked on the least. Frost was barely touched and 2H Frost seems “hacked” in. There are obvious problems with self-healing on the Unholy side that could be fixed with a moment’s worth of thought. Unholy’s use of mastery being far below what was implied to be the goal. Etc.

        But his answer seemed to include different classes and specs. He doesn’t want to acknowledge flaws because they want to release without people complaining after HE says something is wrong. So he just shrugs and looks away while Cata launches and they figure by the time MOST people are 85, they’ll be well on their way toward shoring up the remaining specs with some bandaids. I’m sure that’s the plan for 4.1 in addition to the in-game map improvements and new dungeons (ie., “Fix remaining unfinished specs.”) But you can’t expect them to come and admit that.

        They’d much rather people go on believing in the lie of, “Blizzard’s a ‘When it’s done’ developer” when it is clear that the Blizzard that would MISS a holiday season (ie., Burning Crusade, Diablo) to truly polish a game/expansion is long gone.

  34. Is it my imagination or did they just nerf Blood (again)? I don’t really follow Blood, but I can’t remember ever seeing the armor bonus on Blood Presence at 30% before?

    I guess they’re going to stubbornly cling to this Blood mastery? To me, it seems like a mistake to try and balance Blood around self-heals because it just seems to me that logically they’re either going to be too strong (making Blood unbelievably good) or too weak (making Blood completely useless). I know I wouldn’t want to balance non-AP-based self-heal/absorption (with its inherent balance of how much MORE damage do you take to balance out how much self-heal) against AP-based absorption or shields.

    Then again, I’m probably off-base. Just stood out to me when I looked at the “hotfixes” on the mmo-c page just now. Anyways, it’s Turkey Day. HAPPY TURKEY DAY DK’S! Going to bed now.

    • Rebellion says:

      Well let’s face it, the design of blood tanking – while unique and kind of interesting – is not the best. As you already pointed out balancing it will be more than just tricky. The fact that our mastery shields us and our main strike heals us combined with the fact that we have 6 or 7 emergancy cooldowns will lead to the same problem we had in the early stages of wotlk. We will see alot of iteration and many nerfs ( added to the dozen nerfs IBF went through already ;)) as the class yet again shapes to be very situational , like in early wotlk when we were absolutly overpowered as tanks on some encounters and useless on many others.

  35. Sevyne says:

    Didn’t see anybody mention it anywhere, but Glyph of Death’s Embrace is refunding the 20RP on overheals now. With exactly 90RP you can fully stack Shadow Infusion on your ghoul, which has been pretty nice so far on pre-pull.

    I am curious though if it would be worth it in combat now that it works this way. You’d be refunded 100RP total getting a 5 stack up, so you’d only be losing slightly over 2 damaging Death Coils for a much higher DT uptime. At 80 this obviously isn’t even a question since haste is out of control, but at 85 (where we should have a lot of open gcds) it makes me wonder.

  36. ODK says:

    Well, im not a great tank so im just curious, awhile back i use to solo magtheridon and alar on a weekly basis for gold and practice, as the changes to cata have happened things have gotten harder and harder, to the point that now, i cant even take out magtheridon anymore….

    im curious, if some of the more skilled tanks could try this out with the way things are now and let me know if you had much trouble…. i figure my skills are quite rusty but im gettin frekkin ass reamed like crazy…..i just feel the nurfstick went way to fuckin far with the self healing on EVERY level….

    it really feels like the shield is either going to be to powerful or to weak while at the same time screwing self healing for the rest of the specs too… im really hating the way things are shaping up on that end….

  37. Gordak says:

    One thing i was wondering about and could not really find any info on, is single disease frost DPS,

    The main gain in dmg here will be in more OB over time and the loss is 12.5% dmg per OB and Blood strike.
    Our rotation will consume more runes and as such will free 1 or 2 gcds per rotation.

    if we only look at this factors than single disease is less dmg by about 5% and since frost is back any way it’s even less viable.

    How ever if the gcds gained allow as to switch to frost pres than the gain in frost DMG from frost strike can make up the diff.

    I have run sims on it but the results I got was not very conclusive, it seem that on the sim using unholy press is the clear winner, but just testing my rotation on a dummy I was able to not cap RP and keep at least one rune of every type on CD as long as my haste was around 15%.

    It feels to me the sim dose not work out the rotation correctly.

    Did any one else did any tests on this ?

  38. Jonneh says:

    Not one _single_ use for DSim in t11?

    Kinda says it all really doesn’t it. I assume no use for NS either? My quick think about the bosses I’ve seen says no healing ones.

    So, completely useless 83/85 skills so far as pve is concerned. Colour me totally disappointed. As if they couldn’t even spring for a guy who chucks frost bolts around or something.

    • Consider says:

      Not one use which I caught or any DK beta tester I’ve spoken with on the subject caught.

      NS has a place or two, assuming the shield + hit > SS’s average damage, which it should be at 85.

      • Mark Miller says:

        The best use I found for DS is in heroic Deadmines – you can copy the holy fire nuke which does ~50k or so worth of dmg, or the chaining water bolt the sailors do. Otherwise its not worth mentioning.

  39. Ðemøsthenes says:

    Hey Boss-Man
    Was wondering when we can expect your pre-Cata stuff to do blog post, would be great time to get it. Hey question for community good time to start leveling leatheworking skill? Or would it be more prudent to wait until 85? Thanks for all great work Consider! Hope you had great time off!

    • Consider says:

      Yeah, being out of town for a couple of days, then coming back and simply enjoying the new leveling has preoccupied me! I’ll definitely make a post tonight (Monday) about something or other. Maybe leveling specs, if that’s all I can come up with.

      • Jonneh says:

        Someone was asking me about which spec is best for levelling now.

        I came up with probably 2h frost, but maybe even 2h blood in dps gear. (20% haste for free, spammable rune strike, self healing for no downtime)

      • Mark Miller says:

        I’ve been thinking this over too, and it looking like blood dps or frost seems to be the way to go. Unholy just doesn’t seem to be the ideal spec for leveling anymore, the raw burst from frost or survival of blood are just to good when grinding out levels. When I leveled as unholy on beta I was constantly have to stop eat bandage etc. But I haven’t seen any post on the subject.

  40. psyquest says:

    I am tempted with two hand blood leveling with dps gear. I have tried this on beta, no downtime whatsoever and in case of bad pulls you have plenty of “oh shit” buttons.

  41. Anonymous says:

    haha.. why do you say Mmo-champion community hates you?

  42. Rhaevos says:

    I’m curious why they just don’t simply roll the old 2hand talent into something new, like into Virulance or Might of the Frozen Wastes. Even if it becomes too strong later in Cata, that tier of content is months to a year away. Numbers can be adjusted again for later.

  43. Anonymous says:

    So now 2H unholy is the spec to take until you’re BiS in which DW gains its superiority? Or is DW optimal all the way through T11?

  44. Avaddon says:

    Would you say it would be most optimal after having gained the heroic versions of the dual-wielded weapons? Or just Heroic gear in general? (Also, I know it seems like a terrible question, but is the hit soft-cap higher for Dual Wield? If so what number? (If the passive hit bonus early in Unholy is taken into consideration being that it’s part of the build.)

  45. Demosthenes says:

    I was under the impression that the hit cap would be lower for DW seeing as we gain 3 percent from talents in frost? I dont think it is wise to go for the 26 or 27 percent white hit cap for DW seeing how high strength is on the stat weights… Correct me here if I am wrong. Just a lil time to complain here, I sure do wish they would hurry up with the reversion to old meta requirements…. Could not really be all that difficult with all the hotfixes they have been putting into game. Question what item is everyone planning on picking up first w/ valor points? I figured License to Slay would be best bet seeing as it is BiS all the way through hardmodes gear set ups, plus it affords us a static buff almost and allows us to perheps unforge some of the crit to hit. Anyones thoughts on this matter?

    • Magdalena of Turalyon says:

      You’re making the same mistake I did initially and forgetting that the ghoul will not benefit from the hit provided by NoCS. Therefore, you’ll still want 8% to cap the ghoul’s hit and expertise rating, seeing as it’s your largest source of damage.

      And no, noone ever goes for the 27% DW white cap. Having enough to cap your melee special attacks plus the 9% from Virulence which spell caps you is more than sufficient. If I’m not mistaken though, if DW Unholy is allowed to remain viable then Expertise will surpass crit in value at Tier 12, no?

      • Demosthenes says:

        I thought expertise would only become more valuable if we get gcd capped? Is haste supposed to be that high mid expac that we then get gcd capped? Thank you for reminding me about the ghoul not benefiting from the talented hit percentage.. I had question as bout duel FC enchants on weapons… Are the proc per minute? And are they seperate if you have two of them? Or would one proc from say your off-hand overide the one from MH? I am sure this has been covered before and that consider wouldnt have suggested this if it wasn’t optimal, I am just wondering how this set up works some..

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