Guide(s) – Other Forums?

The last two things I wanted to get done for Elitist Jerks before Tuesday – more stratified stat weights and the FAQ – are all but finished, and will be thrown up before the end of the evening, most likely. Once those are complete (on top of a couple other minor odds and ends, such as discussing DW verse 2H for each spec, which I’ll also knock out), the guides should be in a very strong place for Cataclysm and likely won’t need any factual work done for months. Obviously if there’s anything you believe to be inaccurate, lacking, or otherwise missing, I’m always open to feedback, but I can’t think of much else the two could use without going overly in-depth into a particularly complicated area or a particularly simple one… that’s probably the most difficult aspect of threads such as those: balancing between giving detailed enough information without being overly detailed and balancing between explaining without handholding. Fall too far either which way, and there’s bound to be issues.

At any rate, to the matter at hand: I’ve been wondering if anyone would see any value or benefit in me making one or two guides for the official forums and/or mmo-champion forums. These wouldn’t merely be truncated versions of my EJ ones, but done from scratch entirely, and although it would inevitably contain much of the same information, it would skew more towards that “explaining” end of the spectrum, whereas EJ already leans slight more to the “details” side, and likely could afford to go a bit farther down that route, especially if I did this.

There would be several benefits to be gained: reaching a wider audience (not just on the posted locations, but it would also likely draw more people to the threads on EJ, or even here), helping those who probably need it most (let’s be honest, the sort of person who visits the official forums but isn’t familiar with EJ likely is newer and less knowledgeble of the game), making the official DK forums a somewhat more intelligent place (not that I’m deluded enough to think it would stop even half the stupid threads there, even if it prevented one a week, that’s something), and so on.

To be clear, I’m not asking if any of you readers would use such a thing. Odds are, if you’re here, you’re familiar with EJ and not the sort who needs this sort of thing anyways, although you might still be interested in why certain things are as they are and what have you. I’m asking if you think it would be a good idea, in general, for the DK community and player-base.

I’m very interested in feedback on this subject, so if you wouldn’t mind spending a couple seconds voting and/or commenting, I would be quite grateful! I have mixed feelings, myself, and can’t quite make up my mind.


70 Responses to Guide(s) – Other Forums?

  1. Rodalpho says:

    Guides in the official forums are a great idea, but the CMs aren’t stickying them, so there’s really no point unless you plan to bump daily for the rest of your life. The new official forums are basically a write-off.

    • Consider says:

      That’s quite untrue: refer to

      At any rate, even if the official forums were to be a write-off, I could also entertain the idea of doing them for the mmo-champion forums, as I don’t believe they have a Cataclysm version of the DPS specs. /shrug. The specific location isn’t terribly important so much as simply any other location on top of EJ with the same benefits of reaching more people, allowing me to make the Ej one a bit more complex (by having a bit simpler version around if needed), and so on!

      • Orkchop says:

        The Wowhead Forums would be a good spot, too. Many players know to go to their for information.

      • BloodyFox says:

        I think it would be quite nice to have your guides someplace else other than EJ, because they wouldn’t have to be too concerned about getting the banhammer when they ask stupid questions. Ofc, in essence there are no stupid questions, only stupid people, but alas.

        I don’t know if you’d feel obligated to sift through every thread you’d create then once questions start popping up, but I don’t see why you would have to. I mean there are almost always some intelligent folks even on those boards that could take care of most of that work, but it’s your call if you’re willing to “risk” that they’d maybe spread some erroneous information. Still I figure the benefits outweigh the risks by a large margin, so just go for it (the poll is suggesting it too).

  2. Rodalpho says:

    The forums are down right now obviously, but I assume you linked to the warrior forums.

    Quick answer is that some are stickied and some aren’t. Entire class forums have no stickies despite 100s of reports. I know this, because I maintain one of those posts and have had no luck getting mine stickied for the past several *weeks*.

    • Consider says:

      Druid, actually.

      Just assume for the sake of argument that there wouldn’t be an issue with it getting stickied.

      • poiso says:

        I believe the policy on the forums has been for a long time not to sticky the guides themselves. Instead there is one large stickied thread by a blue posted called “classes useful links and guides” or something similar that contains a list of links to threads with aforementioned guides.

        Imho that system is far better, as it’s not nearly as cluttered and functions as a proper directory rather then a jumbled mess that would be having a couple of dosens of stickied “guide” threads.

      • Syke says:

        Actually, topics considered to be high quality can be stickied, as well as topics that are “liked” enough.

        Take this one, for example:

  3. Rodalpho says:

    Assuming you can get it stickied, then yes, the official forums need the help. Desperately.

    Supposedly the next version of their homegrown forum software will include a special “report for sticky” feature, and when enough players do that, it automatically gets stickied. I expect great things in the realm of ASCII art O’RLY owl pictures and chuck norris jokes.

    • Ðemøsthenes says:

      In my estimation few ppl actually give as much to the DK community as you. I think this, would be almost a little to much, hence my no vote. I think you need time to play the game you love so much as well as keep this up and EJ, I for one would hate to see you stretched so thin moderating so many things, to see one of the best blog spots and EJ posts flag a little. Just my thoughts on it. THANKS CONSIDER!

  4. Shíni says:

    I really think it would be a great idea. Would reach so many of those dks that make the whole class seem bad, and overall might even help those who read the EJ forums, but don’t really care if they can get the last 2% out of their class.

  5. otherDK says:

    If you would be willing to personally do this (and goodness knows you do enough for the DK community without it), I think posting at least on the official forums would be an excellent idea.

  6. Zao says:

    I know that we would be happy to get a DPS sticky on MMOC. There’s none in the works as far as I know and I don’t know enough about DPS to write one.

    But I can’t blame you if you don’t want to put up with the MMOC community…although it’s hopefully getting better with the new mods.

  7. Choice says:

    I think posting to all the sites you can think of with links back to this blog is a great idea. It gets more free information of high quality out there and it gets more traffic to your site. win win.

    • Zao says:

      Careful with that though. If it’s something along the lines of “To get the full guide, please visit my Blog” or basically everything that goes above “PS: My Blog has some other interesting stuff” it’ll be deleted pretty fast from mmoc.

      • Consider says:

        I wouldn’t link to my blog anywhere beyond my signature. There really wouldn’t be any point in doing so. Traffic here isn’t a concern of mine; not the idea of this place!

        EJ, on the other hand, would probably have a specific mention, due to the specific nature of the guides (especially in relation to anything new I were to do, but likely nothing more than a single link.

  8. Ledge says:

    Where’s the “Please take down the EJ guides, they are horrible” poll option?

    Just kidding 😉

  9. Mark Miller says:

    If you have time, how about a quick post on the various trinkets and how they are rated compared to each other. I could figure it out if I sat down but I’ve been so stupidly busy recently, I’m not entire how long a trinket like the new darkmoon card will last. Is it replaced with some of the heroic blue trinkets? or does it last last until the first tier of raid content?

  10. Iomadach says:

    Definitely a good idea, not everyone knows about EJ and it pains me when I see DKs spec through which talent boxes have the prettiest art attached to them.

  11. onyxvigant says:

    I second Ðemøsthenes, make sure you make time for yourself to enjoy the game! You without a doubt are talented enough and obviously understand the DK class enough to have your writings published on any site in my opinion. The selfish side of me wants to be sure you do not burn out so that you will continue to contribute to the DK community 🙂

    I can imagine that maintaining several separate DK guides on several different sites on top of developing/maintaining your professional and personal commitments could wear down on you after a while possibly reducing or eliminating your enjoyment of the game altogether. I am sure I do not speak for myself when I say that I do not want to see you drop off of the grid any time soon 🙂

    Thank you for your contribution to the DK community!

  12. Dvius says:

    The more the merrier. If you’re going down the explanation route, it would probably push the more min/maxer to EJ or here anyway. You deserve the credit, so might as well get the exposure. Everyone on the forums is always quoting your posts to answer everyone anyway.

  13. Dravion says:

    I love your work and I am very thankful for all you have done for the DK community. It would be a good idea to “spread the word” and help the guys at the official forums and mmo-champion find their way to your blog and EJ. But I don’t think you should rewrite anything. You are already working so hard for the community, maintaining your blog and the existing guides etc. and it would be a real shame to watch you burn out and quit all this becaus of overworking and exhaustion. Please consider this. I’ve seen it happen many times.

  14. Metin says:

    I would say do it; I wish more EJ authors would be willing to put in the same amount of effort you do toward the sake of clarity.

  15. Lciee says:

    As others have said I would prefer you to continue doing some great quality work (as is current) rather than spreading your eggs out and the quality going downhill. It would be very taxing for you to be answering questions etc on multiple forums let alone this blog and Ej forums.

  16. dwism says:

    If nothing else, it would be great to have a place where you could point new players who ask you for info while you are busy in game 🙂

  17. Tiki says:

    Hey Consider, it’s Tiki/Kraylis. I already have a guidepost on the official forums for DKs in general, written from scratch with condensed information that most players will want.

    It’s got thousands of views and has been uprated and reported to hell, but it keeps falling off the front page due to lack of sticky.

    • Rodalpho says:

      Exactly. It’s a real bummer. Personally, I gave up on maintaining my FAQ because of this. If it gets stickied I’ll continue maintaining it, but I’m not going to waste my time updating a document that will be on page 27 in a week.

  18. Reiz says:

    Definitely a good idea, If not just for informing the general public. Getting some credit for all your hard work is something to consider :). And well earned I might add.

  19. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    Definitely a good idea. I would only add that I encourage you to redirect feedback/questions from those other guides to your EJ thread so that you aren’t stretched out over multiple forums, especially if the questions become repetitive.
    Hosting your feedback on EJ has its own pros and cons, but at least you can be guaranteed you won’t be asked totally idiotic questions.

  20. Hinenuitepo says:

    Voted no, but it’s up to you *shrug* commented on the poll itself 🙂

  21. Warpstone says:

    I voted for the WoW forums but if getting a sticky is now a very hard thing to do then putting one up at mmo-champ might be a better option. You do a great job Consider keep it up but don’t burn yourself out as alot of the DK community appreciates the work you are doing to help us all to get the most out of our class.

  22. Kumduh says:

    Would love your guides on the DK forums @ MMO-C!

  23. Texasflood says:

    Though I take the game as serious as I can (and may cover some of the population here), with a family life it makes it very difficult for someone like myself to full-on commit as some do. I love the game and try to read as much as I can to help better serve my (rare) time spent looking for help. I’m sure some can appreciate the time invested to reap such wealthy information that you provide. I think it would be most useful to create guides for some of us that may be missing some of the pieces. Even small things that some may already know; can be a daunting (and mostly inaccurate) search for the correct answer. i. e. 2h frost stat weights, mastery cap. Can not figure that one out… Anyway, I’m glad to have found your blog and it’s the only one thus far that I put trust into. EJ is great for what it is, but seems more hard core, raid centric. Sadly, raids are something I’ve yet to enjoy… Not to mention I have to deal so-so gear. So spelling it out for some of us may be disrespectful to others that have put in their time, but when you have none, it makes the the game that much more enjoyable to have a trusted source. Maybe you could have just a separate tab for us slower folks, as to not insult the core goal of your site. Thanks again. Texasflood – Rivendare

  24. Syke says:

    I say yes to anywhere but have them on the official forums first and foremost, you could also post them on any other “third-party” forum (such as MMO-Champion or Wowhead) but the official forums is the most common place that a new player is going to look for help.

    Hell, it’s where I look if Elitist Jerks doesn’t have the answers I seek.

  25. Delphinus says:

    Hey Consider both your threads at EJ got closed down. What happened?

  26. Ashur says:

    I’d say yes on both websites, the more death knights you can educate the better, we’ve had the “class for idiots” rep for a bit too long.

  27. Kobrinha says:

    I’m going to be selfish and say keep things very focused (my vote is for EJ). IMHO no matter how much great explaining you do a M&S (moron and slacker) player will always just ask at the end “ok, but how do I do the best DPS?” They want all the reward without any of the work. They don’t care about the difference between runic empowerment / corruption nor do they worry about optimal times to use AMS for extra runic power. The sad part is not only do they not care but they vehemently defend their averageness with “it’s just a game” or “i have a life lol”.

    Your guides are best suited for the end-game DK who truly wishes to learn their class / improve. Someone wanting to be the best they can will do their work to be the best. They will search online for all information, FAQS, stickies, videos, etc. themselves.

    IMO your guides should not be written in a manner to cater to the masses – they should be tuned for the maximum performer because that is the person who’s going to be seeking your research / advice. Again, being selfish, I don’t want you burning yourself out or losing focus on who really gets the most out of your guides – the constant-and-never-ending-improvement minded player.

    “If you build it, they will come”.

    • Samael says:

      This M&S elitist nonsense is toxic to the community at large. Some people don’t need to know the formulae driving the DPS numbers, or why or how stat weights were determined. That doesn’t mean they don’t want to know how to do their jobs well, or that they are undeserving of information.

      The guys over at EJ are the true hackers, they want to be as close to the metal as possible. Then there are people who genuinely care about doing their jobs well, but do not need, want or enjoy the crafting of theory, but want the end product, in an easily discernible package. Then there are people who play decently but are unaware they could improve, followed by people who are bad, do not care that they are bad, and give us all a bad rap.

      Only that last category of people don’t deserve to have understandable, clear, concise and correct information. And they wouldn’t read it anyway, so who cares.

      @Consider, I vote for the largest audience that you feel like you could produce a quality experience for. I think that having to simplify your discussions will actually enhance your ability to produce these guides, even the guides for more advanced users.

      • Kobrinha says:

        The M&S nonsense _is_ toxic to the community at large, I agree – it’s the M&S that gives “us” the bad rap. Your categorization of players can be summed up in two groups – those that wish to improve and learn, and those that don’t.

        Consider’s guides can be “closer to metal” than they currently are – in fact, I think the guides hit the sweet spot with the second group you mentioned – “those who genuinely care about doing their jobs well, but do not need . . “. He gives precise information (this optimal spec for 2H, this for DW, etc) with suggestions on how to custom tailor your spec (i.e. optional talents sections).

        There is no need to “dumb down” any of it or make it “more accessible” because quite frankly, it’s very well written for anyone with a decent idea of playing a DK to follow. It would be a hard read for a DK newbie, someone who doesn’t have an idea of what a spec is, but I would assume that person is not the intended audience.

        Lastly, the guides are designed to help a person get better for themselves. If it was specifically just for the second group you mentioned, it would only say “spec this, talent this, end guide”. There are, however, many of us who are looking to constantly improve or adapt to situations. Sure you can have an “optimal spec” for a majority of situations, but what would you do if there was a specific encounter that was holding back your guild progression? Do you just say “well I can’t do anything because I already have the most optimal spec”? Or are you able to assess what your raid needs, adjust talents / gear accordingly, and help contribute?

        Consider’s guides are for those that wish to learn and improve. Keep them that way. If you want to just be told how to spec/gear, ctrl + f each section.

  28. trepor says:

    How you would rate the specs in terms of aoe dps?

    • Syke says:

      Why does AoE dps matter? It’s not an important mechanic in Cataclysm because you simply cannot walk into even a Heroic dungeon and burn it down with AoE.

      When T15 comes out and is the new T10 we will be able to, but even then we won’t be AoEing the trash in the final raid of Cataclysm. Or at least I have my doubts.

      • Zao says:

        Actually we’ve already started AoEing most packs. And we’re only in our ~340s

      • Consider says:

        Same when running with people I know. AoE is as doable as ever (in heroics) once you start getting the gear; which is very fast (up to 350 ilvl now without a single raid yet).

        We did, of course, use CC at the start, and still use it if the healer is having some trouble, but one very quickly passes the point where it’s necessary, or even helpful.

      • trepor says:

        and how do you feel the specs perform in aoe? both dw and 2h variants

      • Shinarou says:

        For a fight like Magmaw it’s downright necessary. Casters aren’t having an easy time with AOE right now, and as Frost you can take a couple steps away from the boss and spam HB/drop DnD to help burn the Lava Parasites. That and as mentioned, most pulls in heroics can be cleaved down at this point with mostly ~340 ilev geared players.

        I haven’t seen many Unholy DK’s out there, but I can tell you that Frost is in a very, very good place right now in terms of both AOE and single target dps. It was hard getting used to the standard GCD again, but now Frost DW feels great to play and performs swimmingly.

  29. Bloodfreezer says:

    First off, I think you’re a great job writing the guides and I love the in depth explanations on EJ.

    I think it would be nice for others to read them too, but here’s where I get selfish, I don’t want you to “burn out” over doing more guides than you are right now 🙂


  30. Funk Galaxy says:

    If your long term goal for this blog is to monetize it, I suggest posting your guides in some form or other in as many places as you can. Having a meaningful net presence can pay off big.

    • Consider says:

      Such is not a goal, long-term or otherwise.

      • Funk Galaxy says:

        In that case I’d like to change my vote to keeping it to Elitist Jerks. No sense in burning yourself out. That said, thanks for all your hard work. It’s amazing.

      • Jonneh says:

        have to say, in my experience the good players will find information on EJ or anywhere else and the bad ones will wait for someone else to point them to it.. or wont bother at all.

        So it makes little difference where it is, imo.

        I’m really not sure about doing our bit to help the bad players either. Is it really worth your time?

        The only reason I can think of is because EJ is so unfriendly to, well.. everyone. That is a double edged sword though, without their strict moderation the forums would be akin to the stupidity present in the official forums.

        If you think about it, the official forums wouldn’t help entirely either, since you could presumably only post in the US. I’d be happy to re-produce the thread for you in the EU, but you still couldn’t respond to stuff directly.

        I have no idea what the pwnwear forums are like, so I cannot comment there.. but it comes back to really what the goal of additional material would be. If it is to try and educate ‘bads’, I would suggest that anyone capable and willing to improve would already be checking out EJ. Everyone else is well, just not a gamer by nature surely?

  31. Demented Logic says:

    Honestly I would say just keep it on EJ. If someone wants to learn their class inside and out, most forums direct them to EJ. Posting it elsewhere, while it makes it more openly available, changes nothing if the person isn’t actively willing to make those changes, or to be better. Those that take the time to search (even for a very small window of time) will easily stumble across EJ or be directed to EJ.

  32. Gravity says:

    I said nowhere else. If people truly want to seek understanding, the guide at EJ is sufficient. If they have questions, those can be asked at their favorite community site. No need for guides elsewhere I’d say, given EJ will end up being the ultimate reference, the authority, so to speak.

  33. Anonymous says:

    Your guides are wonderful consider, but for when I tank I am having trouble finding a guide comparable to yours. I can’t find tanking stat weights or BiS or anything. Does anyone know a good place?

  34. Jonneh says:

    I do have a question about the priority system. Am I to understand from the EJ OP that, assuming DT is already up, we do not priorities DC over rune spending even if RP capped?

    Its rare, but during a haste proc and heroism (for example) its possible to get runes back so fast that one can’t seem to slip a DC in without delaying a rune strike.

    This spawns a secondary issue/question/discussion;

    I often find this happens as you’re getting all 4 death runes back and unholy runes are also coming back up obviously. SS will use the unholy runes first meaning that sometimes you’ll use both blood/death runes and be left with 2 frost/death and RP cap.. etc. You see the issue.

    I often end up screwing my rune syncing which feels like its a huge mess, and end up using ERW just to resolve that instead of perhaps in a more intelligent place.

  35. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    Heart of Rage now trumps Crushing Weight as BiS? I’m guessing this is also in anticipation of DW Unholy’s favoring of Expertise over Crit, come late Tier 11/early Tier 12?

  36. Raaj says:

    Did Consider ever do a stat weight for dual wield unholy? Or was that fixed so it is no longer best?

  37. BloodyFox says:

    So, Consider, say – is your blog dead? :>

  38. Interesting stuff in that recent class intent post by GC. UH may be too high in single target damage. They are looking at changing UH mastery to instead boost the percentage of damage added by the number of diseases on a target for special attacks, which does nicely bypass the problem of scaling diseases or becoming too reliant upon the pet (if they added that to the current bonus). And he mentioned specifically the problem of Death Strike being currently designed too much to be Blood’s main attack and wanting to be sure it is good enough for Frost and Unholy to use for self-healing.

    Damn shame Blood can’t be made to use their specialized strike more often, I think. Unholy pounds the crap out of Scourge Strike, Frost pounds the hell out of Frost Strike, but Blood can let Heart Strike lie in favor of Death Strike. That seems off.

    Bet Consider’s gone because 1) Holiday, 2) Did a lot b4 launch of expansion, 3) He seems to be in a tank mood atm, and 4) Holiday.

  39. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    “We want to make sure Unholy DKs prefer two-handed weapons.”

    Thank God.

    • Leviatharan says:

      More importantly, “Unholy DKs are another spec for whom mastery just isn’t working out. Our current intent is to redesign their mastery so that their attacks cause more damage to diseased targets (in a similar manner to the Restoration druid mastery).”
      Still boring, but stronger than the current I should think.

      • Magdalena of Turalyon says:

        Honestly, I wouldn’t have minded if Mastery had stayed useless for us. DW Unholy however, is something I would have hated. Of course it’ll be interesting to see how far (if at all) this bumps mastery up in terms of stat weights. Right above crit would be just perfect.

      • Consider says:

        What will be really interesting is what effect this has on crit’s weight! The proposed mastery would, after all, buff crit by extension.

      • Leviatharan says:

        I was actually thinking that it could surpass Crit based on how they presented it. If they made it so “diseased targets take X% more damage from your attacks”, that would effect auto-attacks, strikes, spells, etc., which would have potential to be stronger point-for-point with Crit (after all, X% chance to deal 100% additional damage is equal to 100% chance to deal X% additional damage).
        Really, the tie-breaker there would be the diseases themselves.

        Though I imagine it’d play out more as just affecting abilities. But still, the effect on Scourge Strike alone… And the possibility that Festering Strike or even Death Coil could deal damage per disease!

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