Dreadblade – Mea Culpa

Ultimately, how much dps we gain or lose by the upcoming patch isn’t terribly important. After all, if it’s too much or too little… it really doesn’t affect us, when you think about it. It won’t change how we play, nor how we gear. It might change one’s odds of getting a raid invite, but the nerf definitely isn’t that drastic as to lead DKs – Frost or Unholy – to being benched for subpar players of now superior classes. Sure, you might have to come up with some quick retorts when joking around with the top dps of your guild when they notice they’re suddenly beating you, but such is life! In general, you’ll continue doing everything exactly the same as you have – minus a thousand or so dps.

The mastery change, however, is rather huge. It can change how we play, and it can change how we gear. Or it can’t. It all depends on just how potent the stat is, and that’s a subject which has received much debate.

There’s dozens and dozens of ways to calculate stat weights, but for the purpose of this post, I’m only going to go through two different methods: the simulator and parse dps. These two aren’t any more or less accurate than the alternatives, they’re simply the easiest for people to comprehend, and the cleanest to show in a blog post format. If so desired, I can go over the other ways one can calculate weights, but it would simply echo the results herein contained. Interesting topic for another day.


This is probably method which everyone is most familiar with. All you have to do is plug in your gear or stats, choose your spec and rotation, alter raid buffs or consumables as necessary… and press one little button. It’s easy (if you know what you’re doing), it’s accurate (if there’s not any bugs floating about at the time) and, most of all, it’s accessible/usable by everyone. You can have the math skills of an elementary school kid, and still be able to calculate weights! Fantastic, really.

Unfortunately, the sim is going by the present PTR, and thus doesn’t have the shadow portion of Scourge Strike being affected by mastery. I would be very, very surprised if this is intentional by Blizzard, and it should come as no surprise that if this does end up being the case, there’s no question – mastery rating is horrible.

At most, you’ll get maybe 0.45 as your weight, which is obviously below any other stat. Really, though, as it currently stands, I wouldn’t rely on the sim until it either has mastery affecting the shadow portion of SS, or we know that such behavior isn’t intended (in which case, consider me boggled).

Thus, one must turn to alternative methods of stat weights.

[Parse Damage]

This can be done with any combat log: for purpose of this post, I will be using this one. DK I’m familiar with and who knows his stuff (although, he does make a mistake or two here, coughnodoublepotcough!), and Argaloth is an almost perfect boss for us to test our single target dps on; it’s essentially stationary, it has regular points at which you can soak magic damage for AMS RP, there’s no adds, there’s nothing to pull you off the boss, and so on. The only fault is that it’s relatively quick, which will likely invalidate its usefullness as people gear up, but for now, it still lasts long enough.

Anyways, this method is surprisingly easy, the flaw being RNG and specific fight factors can lead to misleading results, whereas the sim eliminates those two aspects. As long as your getting all your weights from the same specific parse, and said parse is as unremarkable as possible a fight, it works moderately well when the simulator isn’t an option and you don’t have the math expertise to start from scratch with the formulas.

Getting to it, you start by adding up all the damage affected by the specific stat in question. In this case, that means DC (612245), SS shadow (385857), BP (175109), and UB (48839). Because the patch obviously hasn’t gone live yet, you have to multiple all of these numbers by their various nerfs and buffs: DC (612245*0.9=551021), SS shadow  (385857 *0.938*1.22=441559), BP (175109*0.93=162851), and UB (48839*0.9=43955). Remember, even though, yes, we have 8 base mastery for 20% shadow damage, you don’t want to factor that in here, as additional mastery isn’t multiplicative with that amount (i.e, you would do X * 1.21, not X * 1.2 * 1.01). Adding those numbers up, you get (551021 + 441559 + 162851 + 43955=) 1199386 damage. Thus an additional point of mastery rating would add you (1199386 * 0.025 * (1/180)=) 167 damage. Over the course of a 174 second fight, that’s 0.96 dps, and thus your weight.

Pretty good, right? Better than haste even!

The issue, however, is the length of the fight in question, which leads to higher than average Heroism/trinket/potion uptime, and thus is going to inflate any weight calculated from the parse in question. For true accuracy, you would have to repeat the process for each other stat – for purposes of this post, however, one is mainly concerned with how mastery faces up against crit. After all, if it’s worse, nothing else matters – we ignore the stat just as much as usual. If it’s better, then you would proceed to compare to the rest, but one thing at a time.

Crit is, of course, a trickier stat to calculate in such a manner. The simplest way to look at it would be to add up all the crittable damage in the parse which didn’t crit, multiply out any patch buff/nerfs (including the mastery one, in this case), then times by (parse crit rate per ability + 1/parse crit rate per ability/100), adding it all up, multiply by the crit meta (which we will, of course, be using),  finished off by simply dividing by 180 and the fight duration. Fun, I know.

So: SS (497771 * .938 * .0110), DC (399609 * .9 * 1.2 * .0105), auto-attack (246555*0.0107), SS shadow (385857 * .73 * .938 * 1.22 * 1.2 * .0110), FeS (183772 * .938 * .0109), BP (141268 * .93 * 1.2 * .0108), FF (148985 * .93 * .0118), UB (48839 * .47 * .9 * 1.2 * 0.0105). Do note, that for SS shadow and UB, you have to multiply by the proportion of SS/DC’s non-crit to crit damage, as they’re not split. Anyways, adding this all up, you get 22037 * 1.03 = 22698. Divide by 180, and then divide by 174, and you wind up with 0.73 dps as your weight!

Now, of course, I did gloss over some factors. I ignored the UM nerf (as it would affect the two near equally, and it would greatly complicate things here). I assumed that the shadow part of SS is, indeed, intended to be affected by mastery, and that the ghoul still doesn’t scale with crit. I didn’t delve into the RC change, as it primarily affects ghoul damage (which doesn’t matter when using this method). Overall though, based off what we currently know, this is roughly accurate.

So, yes, Mastery does appear to be desirable – superior to crit/expertise, without a question, although it still falls short of haste (more on that at another time), and hence the title of the post! Yes, I was mistaken in my previous writing, and am more than happy to admit it. I have my own, personal spreadsheet I use to quickly test new changes and what have you, and I accidentally still had a part tweaked which was leading to the ghoul benefiting from crit rating (which would let it edge out mastery, for the record, but that’s neither here nor there, now). Hence my initial mis-estimation of the stat.

At any rate, this will heavily change how we gear and reforge. Expertise/crit will be all but ignored, with hit/haste/mastery being the three pinnacles of success, such as it will be. Once the PTR is more ironed out – we know for certain that the shadow SS is intended to be affected, for example, among other matters – I’ll develop new BiS lists and the like.

Anyways, off I go. I’ll probably write about 2H Frost in the coming days. Maybe. Not a ton to say on the subject beyond the fact that it’s not as bad as it was, it’s still not competitive with the other two specs, but it has very similar gearing to 2H Unholy, and thus is an excellent dual-spec option for AoE heavy fights.


115 Responses to Dreadblade – Mea Culpa

  1. Azyl says:

    Dreadblade effects Blood Plague too right? so is our disease damage gonna be similar or or will it be considerably less? I know it might be at a certain lvl of mastery, but when is that?

    • Velk says:

      At 0 mastery, before patch diseases will do 140% each for 280%, and after they will be 130*1.2 + 130 or 286%

      Any level of mastery above zero will be a net loss in disease damage ( Dreadblade scales disease damage at 1/4 the rate of Blightcaller ), but having the base damage change from 200% to 260% soaks up a lot of the difference in absolute terms.

  2. Acrophobia says:

    I’m mostly excited since I can swap from Frost to Unholy with more ease now that it won’t require an entire reforge.

    Thanks for the post and the always amzing in-depth math to back it up.

    • ODK says:

      I do agree with this, will be easier to go back and forth, now back to 2 sets of gear instead of 3…

      • Consider says:

        The thing about the math here is how simple it is. Really, anyone can pick a parse, grab a calculator, and use such a method for generating weights. Ultimately, the sim is the best tool – as it’s universal, most in-depth, rules out rng, etc – but this method, used with an “unremarkable” parse, is an excellent way to double-check your work. The weights themselves won’t match, for various reasons, but the order of the weights, and the approximate percent by which one weight is greater than another, should stay roughly equal, and that’s the key.

        So, so many ways to do weights. I thought this would be one of the easiest to show for this scenario.

  3. Jonneh says:

    This comes as a surprise to me. How much of a gearing change?

    Starting to fear that I’ve blown like 5k VPs on the wrong stuff. Guess it means I should probably mention the BoE substitutions which I’ve not seen noted anywhere.

    The BoE cloak, legs and ring for str users all have the same stats (exactly the same stats in most cases, save the legs) as the raid dropped ones. This may influence you because the VP purchased ring has mastery, as does its BoE dropped counterpart. Haste/Mastery in fact. Same as Band of Bees

    BoE Legs (More haste, less hit, not exactly the same but worth noting)
    BoE Cloak

  4. tadkim says:

    Thanks consider

    I read some comments that on PTR, Shadow damage of SS is not affected by Dreadblade.

    Is that right?

    • Consider says:

      Currently, but I (and most others) assume that’s unintentional. If it isn’t, and does go live like that, then mastery is bad.

      • Leviatharan says:

        But what if it’s still unintentional and they still don’t have it fixed by the time they release 4.0.6 on live realms? Do we just… wait for a hotfix?

      • Consider says:

        Then continue to gear as you have been until they do? =/. Not many options, really. I would be surprised if Blizzard a) didn’t fix it and/or 2) didn’t intend to fix it.

  5. ODK says:

    has anyone just tested the numbers on the actual PTR and seen how much we lose so far without counting SS Possibility?

  6. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    I’m curious about our present GCD situation- how much will the Runic Corruption change affect it? I do realize that RC is heavily RNG based, but is there a rough average one can get from the extended procs?

    • Magdalena of Turalyon says:

      Edit: Should have mentioned, I’m interested in the GCD situation due to Expertise currently being undervalued over Mastery. Do you foresee a time, say a tier or two from now, when its importance as a stat rises?

      • Consider says:

        Absolutely – especially with the RC change. The only question is when – tier 11 HM? tier 12? Tier 13? Too early to say for certain. But it’s not a matter of if.

  7. Huckfealing says:

    Flawless, I would expect nothing else.

  8. Andeus says:

    Another great blog post.

    Was about to say that it’s Mea Culpa and not Mea Cupla, as the title suggests, but then I noticed your tweet where you had it right, so it’s just a typo 😛

  9. Grief says:

    Do you have any idea on how 2H Unholy will compare to DW Frost when this patch goes live? Which will be ahead on a patchwerk fight?

  10. Insipidity says:

    This is slightly off topic but I’d like to know if Fury of Angerforge would possibly fit into any spec’s BiS list …


  11. Dagr says:

    If Dreadblade doesn’t modify the shadow portion of SS, someone is sabotaging us behind the scenes!!

    I’m already beginning to collect some mastery off pieces to hopefully counter the patch with preparedness.

    Is it me or patch to patch we still end up being extremely competitive no matter the ‘nerfs’.

  12. Huckfealing says:

    So here is my question, i could be completly blind, but did you take into account RoR changes here?

  13. Zokrah says:

    Blue just confirmed that the shadow portion of ScS is affected by Dreadblade.


    So Hit Haste Mastery it is then.

  14. Anaroth says:

    Mastery could still end up being more valuable than haste, but it doesn’t really matter that much.
    Basically strength is still the king by far, hit is worth getting to near the cap, and then it’ll be haste and mastery instead of haste and crit. Mastery should definitely be better than haste in an ae situation at least, as haste does nothing for our diseases and DnD.

    • Dth says:

      Well Haste gives is just about everything, quicker rune refreshing, fast swings, faster pet swings (I also believe it increases their energy regen).

    • George says:

      I think it will be something like

      Str –> Hit –> Haste –> Mastery –> Expertise –> Crit

    • Jonneh says:

      expertise will still be valuable, and even more so as we move on in gear progression.. eventually we will want to cap it simply to free up the GCDs

      • George says:

        That depends on our Haste, i guess. The more we have the more will expertise be desired.
        We also have to watch how Sudden Doom will behave.
        Plus, I haven’t lost all the hope in our ghoul scaling with crit properly some day.

        Btw, sorry for the bad english, tired german player over here.

  15. Royksopp says:

    Has anybody tested the rune refresh bug on the PTR? Does it still exist?

  16. Demosthenes says:

    How close to the same will the BiS gear for Unholy be now that the shadow portion is confirmed and it looks like Str>Hit>Haste> Mastery…. takes over? One thing I see as large difference however is the value difference in expertise for 2h Unholy to 2h Frost.. I ask because the valor point are starting to stack up.. and other then gloves I am wondering if the chest and leg slots will be changing?

    • Consider says:

      I’ll probably go over them this weekend. Maybe tomorrow evening, if I’m in a particularly good mood!

      As far as tier pieces go, legs will almost certainly be the odd man out, still. Tier hands are perfect, chest has no decent alternatives (haste/exp, compared to haste/crit), helm has no decent alternatives (daybreaker is losing like 60 strength, remember), shoulders has no decent alternative (crit/mast instead of hit/haste).

  17. bootz says:

    what about boots

  18. bootz says:

    the boots off heroic chimaeron are looking pretty good

  19. Ravenbrand says:

    MMO-Champion just reported that the Shadow Damage of SS is supposed to be affected by Dreadblade. It’s bugged at the moment.

  20. Pesmurga says:

    The shadow portion of SS IS supposed to be affected by DreadBlade. This was confirmed via a blue post:


    Per Lylirra:
    “The Shadow portion of Scourge Strike is intended to be affected by Dreadblade (this was part of the intent behind changing Unholy mastery); however, there’s a bug on the PTR right now that’s preventing this from happening correctly. It should be resolved soon, or may already be resolved in the next PTR build.”

  21. Oxytoxin says:

    This mastery stat will probably outweigh expertise and be approximately same as crit. Compared to frost, unholy has much less shadow damage, due to the large portion of our dps coming from our ghoul. Since the new mastery is basically same as the frost one, I dont see it outweighing haste. I dont think there will be a radical change to the way we play, but just make mastery a more favorable stat than before. The biggest downside for the mastery is that it doesnt affect pet dmg, which is still ~2X% of our dmg after nerf.

  22. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    Okay, I’ll bite. Suggestions on topics to blog about:

    *Tanking. How do YOU like it in Cataclysm? What are your thoughts on Blood at 85? What makes gearing for tanking so different from DPS (especially stat weights)?

    *Unholy and scaling. I think very few people properly understand why there was so much frustration behind the 3.3 Scourge Strike nerf. This could be a post about why Unholy scaled so terribly in WoTLK, what Cataclysm has done to remedy that (if anything!) and how to go about understanding Blizzad’s vision for us.

    *2h Frost. They fell short of the mark again! What could they possibly do (besides just increasing the melee damage %) to prop up 2h Frost for now and future patches?

    *Your thoughts on the expansion in general. Raiding? Dungeons? Fun factor? Where do YOU think they could have improved? What do you think about the new healing model (assuming you’ve healed on another class)?

    *Musings on DKs: Although we’re in a good place, we’re not perfect. What would you do to tweak us to “perfection”? This isn’t a repeat of your previous “Hypotheticals” blog post, since that was when we were in a terrible state in the beta.

  23. Xinia says:

    Wouldent expertise climb some more since they buff SS damage while nerf all damage overboard like pet damage which wasent affected by expertise to begin with?

    • Jonneh says:

      the value of expertise is based purely on our GCD situation, as I understand it, which has not been changed at all by this. I take your point that SS is more valuable now, but we don’t lose anything except a gcd when its dodged which is the same before and after the patch.

      • crossed1 says:

        I think the value of expertise might end up coming down to RC uptime. With the Silent Doom proc change and AMS nerfs, RC uptime might take a hit on uptime and reduce Expertise’ overall value (since we aren’t GCD capped as much).

      • Jonneh says:

        I’m not so sure expertise will be swayed much by factors beyond GCD capping. SD procs and white hits are still a very small part of our DPS when you consider the effect of the other secondary rating stats. Its when expertise directly impacts yellow hits that it starts to climb rapidly in value. At least that is how it seems to me, without any math to investigate further beyond what has already been done.

        You do have a point, except about the AMS nerf. As I pointed out in previous comments on the initial blog Consider wrote about the patch changes – AMS will still easily cap us out with any raid-wide aoe as it does now. It just requires 3/3 instead of just 1/3.

        I’ve found both 3/3 and AMZ to be invaluable for progression.

      • Crossed1 says:

        Yeah, i didn’t really get to test much on the PTR with the AMS changes. I’ve always viewed Expertise with Unholy as a odd stat- Personally, I don’t seem to have a problem getting to GCD cap due to playing with an average of 10-15ms ping and at least a good 15% haste (with my UH Gearset). If an attack gets dodged, the lower ping helps to react quicker. But I do understand that getting dodged is still a DPS loss, especially with RC constantly bringing back runes.

        I’ve been strict on our Unholy DK to take 3/3AMS + AMZ. Even if it gets one/two-shotted off by a raidboss attack, it still mitigated any damage that would’ve came out. Most of this tier has a scenario where there is a mass Magic damage done to the raid. AMZing during this part has helped in many ways, from looking at the damage taken WoL afterwards.

  24. Anonymous says:

    Not anything to make a blog post on or anything.. but when you are tanking but in a burn phase / not getting hit what presence does the most damage? and do you just spam HS?

  25. Lamperouqe says:

    Haha, I was surprised to see my log here. Anyways, I think there was a pull when I wasn’t ready on that log as seen on my low active time (hunter pulled 4.5 seconds before I reached melee range) and sometimes I don’t bother prepotting farm bosses. Anyway, a pleasant surprise to see my log being used. 🙂

  26. psyquest says:

    Regarding the use of AMZ in raid. I fail to understand this spell it seems. Let us take the example of chimaeron when the raid is packed and he blasts the raid. It will take one hit to remove the AMZ with the damage surpassing what AMZ can absord.

    Could you please explain and give example for where this spell is useful?

    • Crossed1 says:

      I was under the impression that it would absorb 75% of damage done while it is up (whether it be for the full duration, or until it absorbs the maximum limit). I’m digging through the logs I have for while I was Unholy. While we were on ODS, i would only AMZ for melee during Incineration phase of Magmatron (we had some instances where they didn’t move out of the fire 😦 ). I have a log of the wipe (this was during the first 2 weeks of raiding):

      For the most part, whenever melee did get the AMZ for the split 2-3seconds, the damage when they received the buff was very minimal. As soon as the shield broke, thats when normal damage resumed. I’ll go Unholy later tonight for raid and keep a close eye on how AMZ mitigates the damage during Chimaeron’s Feud phase, but for now I believe its 75% of damage incoming is reduced until the shield breaks.

    • Jonneh says:

      its quite simple really;

      Anti-Magic Zone
      1 Unholy
      2 min cooldown
      Places a large, stationary Anti-Magic Zone that reduces spell damage done to party or raid members inside it by 75%. The Anti-Magic Zone lasts for 10 sec or until it absorbs (10000 + 2 * AP) spell damage.

      10k + 2 times your attack power at the time of use. So with raid buffs, trinket procs and unholy strength up you’re talking about easily over 10k attack power. So call it 30k.

      That is 30k less damage taken by your raid, shared somewhat randomly between the people stood inside its animation.

      You can see its use in phase 2 and 3 of my Nef kill vid – 3:04 and 5:50

      • John Battista says:

        Its the same reason that rapture provides sufficient regen for disc priests, and that shatter combo’s started existing and that you can double spell reflect as a warrior, ect.


        If two events happen close enough together it glitches out. Hence, many times using AMZ on nef’s lightning will absorb *way* more total damage than it should since the damage events to everyone standing in it are simultaneous and glitch it out occasionally.

        Rapture does the same thing, it has a 12s cd, but if multiple shields break at *exactly the same time* the priest can get the mana returns from multiples of those shields.

        If they ever fix that to not glitch at all, disc priests will oom like mad and AMZ will be pretty bad, 10k+2xAP is rather weak for an aoe absorb /shrug.

      • Jonneh says:

        the below is the p3 AMZ as seen in the vid i linked

        [21:25:13.918] Jonneh casts Anti-Magic Zone
        [21:25:13.918] Jonneh summons Anti-Magic Zone with Anti-Magic Zone
        [21:25:23.076] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine casts Electrocute
        [21:25:23.076] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine casts Electrocute
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Ebon Gargoyle 10580
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Fortyfour 84691
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Limbreaver 10475
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Jonneh 30287 (A: 53690, R: 20994)
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Ballzy 84773 (R: 10466)
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Zargor 41048 (A: 53690, R: 10526)
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Water Elemental 9393 (R: 10436)
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Innos 11907 (A: 35721, R: 10584)
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Gummibear 68717 (R: 21053)
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Enivid 94393 (R: 10488)
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Mælstrom 94061 (R: 10451)
        [21:25:23.095] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Dynabite 85057 (R: 10501)
        [21:25:23.209] Nefarian’s Lightning Machine Electrocute Doris 73546 (R: 31520)

  27. Schlomo says:

    Everyone is interested in an updated BIS list..even as a speculation. Heart of Rage still will be a BIS trinket due to the strong strength proc, am I right? Impatiance of Youth seems to dominate in the passive part, but the strength use effect ist quite low.

    So when there will be an official stat weight update? *can’t wait* 😉

    BTW: My sims always show a very low stat weight for expertise…be it 4.0.3 or 4.0.6. Nonetheless I am at the soft cap and it “feels” efficient, but is there a good explanation on my odd sim results?

  28. Taters says:

    Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but does weapon speed still matter at all for unholy or frost 2H? Specifically, should the 3.8 speed weapons be BiS? If so, what is the stat weight of weapon speed (per 0.1 seconds)?

    • Keith. S says:

      Before the patch, 3.6 was the better because of more Sudden Death procs. With the normalization of sudden death procs to weapon speed, the 3.8 weapon speed weapons will be higher dps unless you are using the Darkmoon Card.

  29. Dareason says:

    Hey consider, any chance of something to read anytime soon. 🙂 I check daily for a good read. I would love to see what you have on 3.06 2h frost as well as the new BIS lists as well as in depth detail on the importance of expertise come 3.06 as it seems like it could go either way in terms of worth or not worth it. Cheers!

  30. Lciee says:

    Noticed you hadn’t blogged in a while hope everything is good. Couple Of questions regarding frost and 406: 1) you have states above that DW will still be superior but haven’t provided numbers – are they available? 2) what spec will frost dk’s be using? Imp. BT and 30% disease dmg will be very close in dps numbers, probably even pushing 30% diseases above IBT on high movement fights. Your thoughts? Also with the 30% disease change would it be beneficial to glyph IIT over FS to gain even more? Thanks.

  31. Vuvuzela says:

    I have been playing around ptr(eu) and just want to confirm with the rest of you guys 2 minor points if you have the chance.Rune Strike from 150%(live) to 180%(ptr) is not mentioned in ptr notes or is just a tooltip fix?
    2)Frost Strike 121%(live) to 111%(ptr) when i absolutely did not notice any coefficient nerf or glyph/talent change that effected it.If anyone can validate or put some input would be great

  32. Runemaster says:

    Question, why is 3/3 AMS now required? It was reduced by one third, not to one third.

    One point now would be equal to 2/3rd of a pre-4.0.6 point later, so 2 points post-4.0.6 brings us to 4/3rds of current rp generation. Given that it’s “roughly” a one third nerf, this is well within the “rough” estimate that 2 points should still give us more than current rp generation, no?

    Thus freeing up an extra point? For absolute min-maxers.

    • Keith. S says:

      Roughly 1/3 = between 50% and 33% of current gain. Which means that 2/3 points in AMS will not be = 1 point of current gain. This is why 3/3 AMS will most likely be required.

  33. Nkiss says:

    Does anyone have info’ about our new stats weight ? Does our ghoul scales now with crit? What about the ppm of the new SD with a 3.6 speed weapon?

    • Keith. S says:

      As stated above Mastery = 0.73
      Strength will decrease to at least to 2.93 because of the 5% nerf. Maybe lower due to our ghoul being nerfed.
      Crit might increase slightly due to more dps coming from SS but will be behind Mastery.
      Haste, exp, and hit should be the same.

  34. Keith. S says:

    Anyone else notice a change with Unholy presence on the PTR. Before it gave 15% attack speed and rune regen. Now it does that plus give 15% haste rating according to my haste rating. My haste went from 15% to 30% when i switched to UP. I wonder if this is intended or a bug. It could also just be that the rating calculation is bugged.

    I personality believe it is a bug but I am hoping it is intended.

    • Mike says:

      They stated that total haste (buffs, talents, etc.) will show up in the Character sheet along with haste from haste rating.

  35. Anonymous says:

    could you also put the stat weight for weapon damage / speed? I don’t see it on the current one 🙂

  36. Royksopp says:

    The PTR now shows all haste effects on your character sheet. So, that 15% from UP now shows itself.

    It’s not a bug, it’s just a “stattip” fix.

  37. Pedro says:

    What weapon would you suggest, if your guild hasnt killed Nef yet? I have Whitefin Axe and Vicious Gladiator axe now (Im orc). Is arena weapon better because of DPS? (it looks like I have dropped in DPS in raid while wearing this), or should I take Magmaw weapon or Axe from Chogall (this is my favourite before Nef kill, but its not dropping for us)?

    I have also switched Heart of Solace with License to Slay (maybe that haste loss nerfed me too, I dont know).
    I will have to make some fights on figurine. But I would like to know your suggests.

  38. psyquest says:

    Has any of you tried the latest changes to http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear?

    It has now a functionality that, taking stats weight into account, will optimise your gear, reforging and gemming.

    • Mortenius says:

      The optimizer can go to hell. It wants you to use all the best enchants (wich close to 90% of wow’s population cant afford). it actually wanted me to got from 8.07% hit to 7.90%, and from 19.21 to 18.84 mastery.

  39. Magdalena of Turalyon says:

    @Twitter post: The funny thing is, for those truly desperate to see what our new BiS list looks like, a visit to Consider’s Frost DPS page should yield some illuminating results.

    Remember that the only real difference between Unholy and Two Handed Frost gearing at this point is the need to cap Expertise as quickly as possible for Frost. This isn’t strictly the case with Unholy right now, but may well be within the next tier of content; and it’s not as if Expertise is a bad stat for Unholy at all.

    So our new BiS list is likely to be very similar to the current 2h Frost list- the only real difference being between something like the tier legs still not being worthwhile for Unholy (the Ascendent Council legs trump them, correct?) and one or two other minor differences.
    On a more frustrating note, it does mean we’ll want at least 2 BoE pieces- ugh!

    What I personally am more interested in is the build- more specifically, if we’re allowed to pull one point out of Improved Blood Tap and put it into Runic Power Mastery. I’ve only done rough napkin math on the matter, but it does look promising- I sincerely hope this is the case!

  40. Anonymous says:

    I know this doesn’t relate to frost or unholy, but when you are tanking but not taking damage (OT for a time) what presence should you switch to to do the most damage

  41. Menineo says:

    Hit to cap > Haste > Mastery > crit/expertise

    is that correct?

  42. Grief says:

    You have failed all the EST raiders.

  43. Brontavius says:

    Help us Consider, you’re our only hope…. 🙂

  44. Dreydnah says:

    Has it been confirmed that the Dreadblade bug on PTR is fixed and that it does indeed contribute to SS shadow damage?

    I know that there was a blue post reporting the bug, but it would be nice to know that it has been fixed.

  45. Decayer says:

    Consider gives advise and information to help others be better DKs. He gives this information out for free using his own free time and you have the nerve to complain cause it isn’t up fast enough on patch day.


    Consider you rock and i am a better DK because of your blog and EJ posts. Don’t let jerks like Grief get to you. Keep up the awesome work.

  46. Omdead says:

    Naked tests with Mark Of Khadros show an increase across the board in SS dmg. Sample sizes are extremely small at this point and are on target dummies only but as the dmg increase is being seen on Min Swing Max Swing and Avg Swing (using skada) I feel safe in saying that the mastery is applying to the SS dmg, at least for now.

  47. DKMan says:

    I know this isn’t strictly related to the topic at hand, but it’s been bothering me for a while now:

    What is the soft cap for haste? I know I’ve seen it in this blog somewhere but can’t seem to track it down.

  48. Kok says:

    I have a question to U guys. When i enter the BoT or BWD im losing 0.69% hit rating (loking in melee sheet). My hit rating goes down from 8.13% to 7.44%. 1st i thought its a bug but during fights my specials missed many times so there is my question. Whats going on? If any of U have such problem or heard about it, please gimme tip, cuz GMs have no clue whats going on. Thanks for any help

  49. RokuNecrosis says:

    Last night I did some testing and ran a random. What I was seeing (outside of greater than usual patch day lag and some known haste issues) was that runic empowerment did not seem to work the way advertised.

    My understanding was that RE would stack on Death Coil use – thus allowing you to drop 2 consecutive DC’s and get 6 sec (actually more like 5 – 4.5) of RE/RC buff. I was not seeing that happen consistently – and even more strange is that I was not seeing the RE effect 100% of DC uses.

    Is this just me – or did anyone else notice this? Did I miss something in the patch notes about RE being effected on Runic Corruption talent? It could have been masked by the patch day lagg – but it really was inconsistent (at least it appeared that way).

  50. Ghatok says:

    Just FYI Consider, ghoul doesn’t need claw macroed anymore. He’s learned how to use it and no longer wastes energy.

  51. Raptor says:

    my target dummy dps dropped from about 17k to 13.5k. Sweet 20% nerf.

  52. Haardrada says:

    So it looks like they did something to the ghoul AI so that it uses Claw more often without being prompted. Huzzah.

  53. Jayce says:

    Hmmm so anyway F WoW. What class should we be for Rift? 😉

    • Grief says:


      1sec let me throw 3 flaming spears that apply a DoT and then use my combo points to make my next attack apply an even larger DoT and I’ll just kill everything before they reach me

      • Jayce says:

        My first look suggested Riftblade as well. Probably with a champion sub spec and maybe reaver for the debuffs.

      • Scuzoid says:

        4 classes with 3 active out of 7-9 available talent trees really does make nerfing a spec less important. Top teir warlord talents get gutted? Drop the warlord tree altogether and pick up champion.

      • Sevyne says:

        Riftblade/Champion will be in it for sure. Reaver or Beastmaster would be alright to compliment those, though Beastmaster means you’re stuck with a pet and Reaver would be superior for leveling.

  54. Theonefreeham says:

    Just a quick question. Would it be possible to ignore Contagion altogether and take 2/3 Magic Suppression, leaving enough points left to take 1/3 RPM, 2/2 IBT and leaving 2 floating points to go to getting AMZ or Death`s Advance?

    • Theonefreeham says:

      By which I mean, why, in the suggested build at EJ, is contagion included when it does nothing for our single target dps and is preventing us from taking single target dps increasing talents? Our disease damage is going to scale so badly now that contagion may not even be worth it for trash pulls as well.

      • Keith. S says:

        Because there are no other dps talents that really increase our dps. contagion is the best choice.

  55. Branith says:

    Riftblade/Champion synergy is getting gutted according to the leaked patch notes. I would prolly go Riftblade/Void Knight/Reaver with heavy spec into RB for the 50% dmg increase to non physical abilities which work with the dots of the Reaver and the Discharge ability of the VK. Paragon might not be to bad because they are changing their tier 1 talent to increase the effectiveness of attack point generators too.

    But for me im going Cleric, that shiz is so OP!

    • Jayce says:

      I think I am actually going to go cleric as well. Inquisitor/cabalist/warden to level sounds fun. I like the idea of a Justicar/Shaman/? as well for dungeons once i pick up dual spec. Either way clerics look like a lot of fun.

  56. Grief says:

    Is anything changing with how Frost will gear? There have been some ‘theories’ about haste and hit rating, that I’m sure you have seen in your thread.

  57. Demosthenes says:

    I am kinda wondering if we have any solid numbers now as to where we should be DPS wise.. I’m not in full BiS actually sitting around 355ilvl, but where abouts is that dps supposed to be? I can say I am not happy with the changes we recieved as unholy.. I am deff. missing Consider right now, I am terrible with math. But I can understand that burnout and tedious work that is ahead of him 🙂 Keep up go work there mate. I am sure the opinion here doesm’t matter but if I were Blizz to perhaps fix this situation, I would request they give us back the 5% str to Unholy passive and take RoR back to 45 percent, that may be enuff to tip balance back to something that DK’s could be happy with? Last questions and thought to how is everyone’s dmg break down looking? My top three go Deathcoil>Shadow Dmg of SS> SS ? Does that seem right now?

    • psyquest says:

      I am seeing the same thing dps wise. We have been nerfed damage wise and we are at the moment in the middle of the pack. Currently in my raid, enhance shaman, shadow priests and hunters are the top dogs. Blizzard seems to have taken issue with DKs being top dog, and while I agree that we should have been nerfed, the nerf seems to be too much: why shouldn’t we be allowed top spots on fights?

      Anyhow, I have parsed the entire world of logs after the hotfix and the fix to haste (10th feb until 15th) : in all guilds worldwide (25 man), I have not found a single unholy DK in the top spot. All data appears to show that frost DW and two hand is still behind unholy and thus we have no other spec to go to.

      My tools might have missed some top DK (doubt it but still) , if you have one parse where in 25 man an unholy DK is top dog, please send it.

      So what now? Basically hold on to unholy and hope for a revert of some of the nerfs. It is one thing to nerf a class that is way above the others, it is another to go from top 3 to bottom 3 on the same bosses (my case). I know I am not perfect and some things are a L2P better issue, the massive discrepancy in damage output between two weeks is more a case, IMO, of a heavy handed response from blizzard and the aftereffect of pvp affecting pve yet again.

      • Blight says:

        I am patiently waiting for Consider’s review too, but reading some of the above posts are we supposed to be ‘top dog’ and any fight? We are not pures. I want my guilds Rogues, Warlocks, Mages and Hunters to be top dogs with me on my DK just behind them. I love the theorycrafting on the DK class and my DK is my main, but as long as our DPS is competitive and doesn’t lag too far behind the pures in general then we should be happy to be frank about it. If you want top dog spots, roll a pure DPS class. But yes the nerfs do feel over the top in PvE as Unholy and Frost needs a further couple of minor tweaks. If we are beating pures on too many fights where gear and skill are pretty equal then Blizz are doin’ it wrong.

  58. Shalymaar says:

    I can tell you I dropped from #1 on the damage meters to somewhere around 7ths and from the numbers I have calculated, we lost a total of around 15% – 18% dps give or take RNG. On boss fights before the nerf, I was averaging around 19k-20k dps with a 359 item level and all epic gear, after the patch, I can barely reach 16k. Now I understand class balancing needs to happen but multiple nerfs within a short period of the patch hitting the live server is overkill IMHO.

    Considering (no pun intended) we are brought into a raid solely for our melee dps (non tanks spec), I don’t see why we shouldn’t be doing similar damage as the rogues. They are brought into raids for their CC and easy interrupt abilities and still pull 19k dps on bosses. The only thing that comes to mind is WTH Blizzard, are you blind? I just hope Blizzard realizes their mistake and fix it sooner than later.

  59. Legatus says:

    My guild did 25 man BoT last night and cleared the 1st boss, stopped there for the night since we cleared 4 Winds in 25man previous.

    As DW frost I came in 1st in overall damage and 2nd in dps, a rogue and a kitty druid was also in the top 3.
    We had a unholy DK in the raid that was way down in the middle, but he may just suck lol.

    I’ll see if I can pull logs, were going back tonight as well.

    My guild is five star rading on Area 52 server

    • psyquest says:

      I am afraid if the parse is about Magmaw, it wont be very useful (adds + bonus damage on head). Could you please provide logs when you can of the other bosses.

      • Anonymous says:

        Magmaw is in BWD, I’m talking about BOT, we cleared the trash and the 1st boss Halfus Wyrmbreaker.

        I came in 2nd place in overall dps at 24,254 and 1st in overall damage done at 23,752,791.

  60. Ketrew says:

    You can see where Unholy and Frost stand against other classes very easy by http://www.StateOfDPS.com. This site parses the top guilds logs from WoL and puts them in one easy place to read.

    Top 200 Guilds 25 Man Heroic Kills: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid=25H&samples=200&spec=dps

    Top 200 Guilds 25 Man Normal Kills: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid=25N&samples=200&spec=dps

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