Failure – Datamining Letdown
September 26, 2010 70 Comments
With beta servers now live with the latest patch, there’s a handful of very, very important changes which datamining did not happen to catch:
- Vampiric Blood no longer costs a Blood rune.
- Path of Frost no longer generates runic power.
- Blood Boil no longer generates runic power unless it hits a mob.
- Death Coiling your pet no longer refunds runic power with the minor glyph if all of the heal is overhealing.
- Single rune abilities now generate 10 runic, down from 15 last beta build and unchanged from live.
- Double rune abilities now generate 20 runic, down from 25 last beta build and up from 15 on live.
- Triple rune abilities now generate 30 runic, up from 25 last beta build and up from 20 on live.
- Justice and Valor point vendors are now accessible.
-
- Justice points come from heroics and the like, and currently can be used to buy a variety of ilvl 346 blues (which is the same quality of gear heroics offer).
- You currently receive 75 Justice points per heroic boss. Items cost between 950 (offhands) to 2200 (chests, helmets, and legs), with plenty of item inbetween.
- Valor points come from raids and the like, and currently can be used to buy a variety of ilvl 359 epics (which is the same quality of gear from normal mode raids – both 10 and 25, remember), including the chest, legs, and gloves of T11. The shoulders and helmet require the tier token to be purchased. Stats of T11 in its entirety (and the badge trinket, which is amazing) are as follow:
- Justice points come from heroics and the like, and currently can be used to buy a variety of ilvl 346 blues (which is the same quality of gear heroics offer).
-
The Vampiric Blood change is long overdue, and needs no analysis. Straight up buff, and a much needed one at that.
The nerf to Path of Frost, Blood Boil, and Death Coil healing all go back to out of combat preperation, an area which was shaping up to be quite troublesome and which I had actually commented on earlier in the week. As you can assume after reading that post, I’m quite pleased with the changes. They have absolutely no real effect on in-combat performance or any such thing, but simply make it so we don’t have to start each fight with 100 Rp and 5 stacks of Shadow Infusion up (which we would have had to do due to the incredible ease, but now no longer can).
The nerfs to base runic power generation… huge. It saves us about 3 GCDs per minute directly (from less FS/DC), plus an additional ~2 from fewer RE/RC procs. 5 a minute is sufficient to put DW Frost under the GCD cap, but only at 0% haste. 2H Frost is still going to go over. Unholy was already now under thanks to the Unholy Presence change – it should still be worth running in UP over FP, but it’s not quite as much a given as it was before. It will depend on haste/hit/expertise levels, and you’ll still go to FP for AoE-heavy encounters. I’ll generate some new GCD tables later in the evening.
Tier 11 is pretty decently itemized (not that it matters a ton, since reforging offers so much flexibility). With haste shaping up to be our strongest stat and four of the five pieces having it, we should be quite pleased. Then that trinket… delicious!
Interesting stuff…
Consider This... 
really nice change for tanking, it free up so much runes
Hooray
Hee hee. One change, and Haste goes from our weakest stat to our strongest stat.
I was hoping they would standardize the per rune Rp gen but the other way, sticking to 15 per and removing some of the excess rp boost talents and cost reductions like Chill of the Grave and Glyph of Frost Strike.
Glad to see that they at least understand the blood cooldowns need to not cost runes. Cross your fingers they do so to the rest of them.
Why not just Blood Tap? Blood still needs to Macro Blood Tap too, Bone Shield still costs 1 Unholy.
I’d rather Blood Tap be used as an emergency for needing to grab something when your runes are all down, to that end it would be nice if its cd was reduced to 30 sec. Besides how many tanks want to have to use a cooldown just to use another cooldown that itself only lasts about 5 sec. Thats just annoying.
Well Blizz likes it I guess, otherwise they’d have probably made Pillar of Frost free, and BS too. In the end they get the final word 😦
Assuming it’s implemented: how much rating do you need for 1 point of Mastery?
180 still. Same per percent of crit. Haste is 126. Hit is 120.
I find the tier sets mildly amusing.
“Sure if you stack haste you will be GCD capped, btw I’m putting haste on 4/5 of your tier pieces….hee hee.”
At least the tier 11 bonus are humorously bad and I likely won’t care for set bonuses so i can nit pick better things like the crafted chest piece.
Humorously bad? They’re pretty decent, actually. 5% crit to DC isn’t astounding, no, but it’s better than nothing, and 3% AP is quite good. All in all, the pieces are decently itemized, with the legs being the worst, and reforging offers a ton of flexibility. I would be quite surprised if we didn’t end up using 4 pieces of it.
But, yeah, it’s quite amusing that we have 6% haste just from four pieces of gear right there. Extrapolate that, and we’re looking at as much as 15% in the first tier of raiding, and that’s not even counting what you can eke out via reforging and gemming.
They really need to nerf the haste conversion rate (and the other stats, sans hit, too).
Sorry, I was looking through the 2h frost lens of the bonuses. Killing machine will make the frost strike bonus really bad, and I’m even wondering if a frost dk can keep the ap stack running. Assuming frost pressence, you would gain 2 death runes on your initial 2 blood strikes, but you then have to wait nearly 20 seconds to obliterate from the 2 death runes and then another 10 seconds to blood strike after that. It’s going to be close for the buff falling off. Assuming you have to run out or target switch or whatever that buff might go bye bye.
Correct me if I’m wrong of course.
With the KM change, you’ll be priotizing their use on Obliterate, not FS, so the bonus shouldn’t be too devalued.
You do have a point on the proc during movement, but I wouldn’t worry much about it. Between two BS and a Blood Tap, you’ll get three stacks up quick enough off the bat, and although it can fall during movement, just using ERW and repeating the process will push it back up, and it should stay throughout your normal rotation (especially with haste and RE).
I’ll have to check and see if the ol’ BotN/BT bug still works with the new rune system.
http://deathknight.info/forum/index.php?topic=5177.0
^
It does. This could potentially be huge for big openers but I haven’t worked it out yet.
I’m not exactly sure how frost will be able to prioritize KM for Obliterate, Obliterate already has utmost priority due to being GCD capped to the extreme. It seems in it’s current state and coupled with the state of frost atm KM is just an “oh if obliterate is up next good if not I can’t really “not frostrike” because that would incur massive dps loss.
I have the exact same concerns. It’s almost like a passive damage modifier now unless we find ourselves with lots of runes and RP at the same time (where we actually can make a choice).
Maybe I was overstating when I said humorously bad, but something else occurred to me. Even with unholy’s GCD problem “fixed”, what the hell is the DK class going to do during bloodlust. I cannot foresee either frost or unholy being able to keep up. Also, can unholy even effectively use Unholy Frenzy on itself?
Unholy Frenzy is attack speed, not haste.
I’m pretty positive it is haste. I remember it saying melee and ranged haste, at least.
I agree that haste rating’s conversion needs to be nerfed. The proportion between haste/crit/hit/etc ratings is unchanged from live, but melee haste is MUCH more valuable for energy, focus, and rune resource classes. All the non GCD locked specs will reforge to haste once they meet their respective hit caps simply because it’s too cheap.
Interesting. I wonder if that brings us close to not needing the 1 sec GCD again..?
Cause I really still firmly believe that they would only do that if they had to, and if they could find another way to give us some GCDs then they would.
Still, so long as its comfortable gameplay, I’m alright with it. Keeping my options open for the massive “I told you so” when it gets nerfed though!
We still need it, especially if the haste per percent ratio stays as incredibly low as it currently is.
Just finished a heroic Lost City, and it plays quite well.
There’s really just no reason to get rid of the 1 sec GCD. It’s flavorful and unique. I hope they don’t switch back unless they absolutely cannot find a solution to any problems we have while maintaining the 1 sec GCD.
from a pvp perspective, its totally overpowered.
End of story!
It’s not overpowered if we are balanced for it. Rogues and Feral druids have 1 second GCDs and that was never the reason they did well in pvp when they were strong. It is over powered when classes that were not designed to have it, have it
Overpowered how? You do realize we have it on live, right? And that it works basically the same, except that we have more runes available?
On live the benefit of a 1 second GCD is that we can “outrun” dispels with our slow, ensuring that even if a Paladin or Priest is dispelling themself, Chains of Ice will still be keeping them slowed. But we don’t really have enough runes to do that on PTR/Beta.
It’s not really overpowered in any way, to be perfectly honest.
I’ll be ready with the “I told you so”
So did the UP change make it in ? Neither you nor mmo-c mentioned it, so I don’t see how a bit of haste, mostly not scaling with our dots and our resource system, makes up for the the loss of a raw +x% and more RP ? The only thing that appeals to me atm is the run speed, but that is , you know situational.
It did, and the haste from UP does scale with our resource system. Just not dots; everything else, however.
I thought it read attack speed and not haste. Wasn’t that the code for ” haha pwned”?
Well if it actually works I can see how it will help and make unholy even more interesting to me, as I am simply in love with the fast paced playstyle of a 1 sec gcd.
Rebellion, you’re not totally wrong =P
it reads: “You are infused with unholy fury, increasing attack speed and rune regeneration by 10%, and movement speed by 15%, and reducing the global cooldown on your abilities by 0.5 sec. Only one Presence may be active at a time, and assuming a new Presence will consume any stored Runic Power.”
So it’s attack speed and rune regen. Just doesn’t affect pets (though, the 5% from improved does, of course)
Nvm, my smokesignal internet connection just finished downloading and i can see it for myself, it states ” attack speed and rune regeneration”. <- happy 😉
My ghoul is finally back – damn you stable master! – no more frost questing.
My dominion of acherus also finally made it back.
Respec costs are still at 66g, strange value.
My quests give alot less gold now, either they broke the conversion ratio of exp -> gold or they nerfed it.
TH still seems not itemized, at least the few quests I did were not.
Unholy Presence gives 10% haste, not just attack speed and rune regen. Its just a tooltip issue =P
Frost Fever was fixed (can critical)?
Triple rune abilities? Could you clarify how you discovered this change? Blood boil misses from lvl+3 mobs initiating a 10 second cooldown on the rune AND no longer giving RP is an issue on it’s own, but add to that Blood drops down to about 4 death coils per minute (Assuming 2/3 SoB, 0/2 Butchery, HoW on cooldown, 1min DRW used on cooldown) with about 3 rune strikes per minute, there’s no way a three rune ability (DnD) actually exists, right?
Army of the Dead.
You silly pointless cooldown.
Thank you.
Thanks for posting the t11 stats. The screenshots make it seem that they are on a vendor in game. If that’s true do they have models yet? Or are there just placeholders?
Placeholders.
Pity on the RP change for Tanks, we could go HoW – IT – PS – BB – SoB Proc and get 60 RP to get a good solid boost on Threat on a Boss Pull, now we can’t do it as easily. Ah well. Thankfully they fixed VB, guess this means Blood Tap – Bone Shield Macro now instead.
Did you check if Pestilence generates RP even if it doesn’t spread diseases? It does on Live already though so I’m not sure if they’d change that.
What would be the point of pestilencing without diseases up? You still have to be in melee range to use it.
With less RP, Blood will feel the pain even more with less RE too.
I’m wondering if Imp BP should get an ability baked in that makes RE proc more off Rune Strike to compensate.
“So it’s attack speed and rune regen. Just doesn’t affect pets (though, the 5% from improved does, of course)”
It most certainly does affect pets.
9/27 19:23:31.282 SWING_DAMAGE,0xF1400047A5007E13,”Gravelbasher”
9/27 19:23:32.855 SWING_DAMAGE,0xF1400047A5007E13,”Gravelbasher”
9/27 19:23:34.331 SWING_DAMAGE,0xF1400047A5007E13,”Gravelbasher”
vs
9/27 19:26:40.888 SWING_DAMAGE,0xF1400047A5007E13,”Gravelbasher”
9/27 19:26:42.137 SWING_DAMAGE,0xF1400047A5007E13,”Gravelbasher”
9/27 19:26:43.329 SWING_DAMAGE,0xF1400047A5007E13,”Gravelbasher”
Blood presence to unholy presence increases ghoul damage from 1100 to 1300 from my testing just then.
Just to ask, I assume you weren’t spec’d for Imp Unholy Presence?
Have you figured out valuable expertise will be for unholy now?
Have you figured out how valuable expertise will be for unholy? I’m considering it on two points, missed hits result in missed dc procs, and missing a hit could also cause gcd lock issues.
If I were to guess, it will be less valuable than it is now. Having the occasional dodge just won’t mess you up at all – a lost autoattack hurts, but that’s about it; a delayed yellow attack doesn’t matter since we won’t be GCD capped in IUP, or even close at this point in time until we have moderate amounts of haste.
The reason hit is still valuable is because it affects our pets, our spells (including Outbreak), and so on.
It will probably be below Mastery. Maybe on-par (in which case mastery would still be better, as it’s greater on AoE).
Dont we get a 5 second rune mini cooldown on dodges now though? (and parry). I may have dreamed that up.
If I am right, dont you have to factor that in as lost resources to the expertise calc? (and did you?)
afaik atm we’re the only melee on live who doesnt suffer anything except a gcd loss for dodges. All other classes loose at lease some of the resouces for the strike they were trying to perform.
I’ll test that this evening and see if it’s still there. It was buggy before; there was only that 5 second mini cooldown if the other rune of the pair was refreshing – it wasn’t there otherwise, which made for some odd behavior.
We do lose auto-attacks, which means losing SD/KM procs (potentially), but yes, that’s it. I personally enjoy being able to ignore the stat!
its not a very consistant stat really is it, i mean, surely they may as well just say “oh here, you need more hit per tier of raiding”
but omg, they do have that now !!!! :p
So expertise just kinda feels pointless now really. Why do bosses even have 360 degree dodge, i mean isnt there some legacy reason they added that to shore up bosses vs melee or some such crap?
I guess really its meant to balance us vs casters who need insane amounts more hit than we do. If i had to guess at the logic behind budgeting a stat for it anyway.
But yes, I agree. If the numbers force us to get more then it just makes calculating gear that much more complicated. I thought the casualclysm was supposed to make stuff easy!
The stat seems pretty redundant now. I don’t really get why the game needs two stats that improve our chance to hit the boss. I wish they’d remove this in cataclysm and replace it with something more interesting.
Called the RP changes! 🙂
http://pwnwear.com/forum/post9772.html#p9772
I like the JP costs, similar to arena points. Also, what takes 3 runes now? Army?
Yes.
For anyone interested: The Vendor Mount no longer has NPCs on it (meaning no Vendors on it anymore) as of the latest Build. If its a Bug or not idk, but if you’re planning to buy it, rein in a bit, you might just have a chance to save yourself 16K Gold.
DOH! I bought this a week ago so that I wouldn’t have to go far to vendor my items when my bags are full.
haha worse yet, every zone ive quested in so far seems to have like absolutely noone to sell to…. or only like one camp per zone with a npc to sell to…
Consider, would you say Frost is better off using Unholy Presence? Between MotFW and the fact that haste on gear is unavoidable no matter how much of it you reforge away, it seems like the lost damage would be more than made up in the extra GCDs.
Wouldn’t mind seeing both Frost/FP and Frost/UP tables if you get the opportunity.
I’ll try and do it tonight, if I get the time. 2H frost is definitely better off in IUP given moderate haste from gear.
Consider, did EJ have you remove the cataclysm preliminary unholy build information? Noticed it was gone this morning.
Yeah, pretty much.
I have it saved to Word and I’ll figure out some place to put it shortly. Kinda don’t want to start a new thread yet, but on the other hand, not really a good place for me to put it here yet either. Who knows.
wow, with the new runic changes, my ghoul basically never gets empowered, i never get enough runic to fire enough coils then it cools down between pulls….
im also sitting there doing nothing for quite a bit longer than normal as well… i dont like it atall….went from fast playstyle to hurry up and wait….
the DK rollercoaster, fun as hell to play, borring as can be, fun as hell, borring as can be… doesnt seem to be a happy medium…
Sounds like Unholy is starting to be like Blood, I feel your pain 😦
So whats the stat to stack right now? havent reforged any of my gear, curious what gives the biggest boost at this point for unholy? seems to change every patch…
After hit capped, haste is the best secondary stat, barring expertise dodges being buggy.
MMO-C says new patch is up. Apparently, no changes for DK’s. Minor changes for others. Patches are coming pretty quickly now, eh?
Guess we’re waiting for 4.0.1-3 for frost/blood changes…or 4.1. sigh.
there’s still alot of time and changes are coming out every few days. Unless they announced “End of Beta” there’s plent of time for them to make changes to blood and frost.
On topic of the datamining “failure” RP generation is a serverside script which cannot be datamined clientside (kinda like rage generation) So to “Mine” it you’d have to either actually play the class or hack into blizzard’s HQ.
Oh, yes, yes! I understand how it works. The point was just that some things can’t be datamined, and some things which are datamined are inevitably misleading or what have you, which is why I almost always do a follow-up entry such as this. It’s not to negate the value of datamining or what Boubouille (and others do), which is an invaluable source of information. It’s just to say that it, by it’s very nature, can’t always tell us the whole story or even the most important aspects of it. Trust me, ❤ Boubouille!
At the end of the day, nothing can quite replace live testing and experience. Simple fact of life.